Does smoking malt impact diastatic power?

Ok, next batch is to be a smoked hefeweizen, a style that isn't that common but apparently is traditional and that I think is pretty damn wonderful. Kind of a gentle smokiness that's nice and smooth to overlay on a pretty mellow base beer. I'll be doing a very simple recipe - Pils malt, rauchmalt, and wheat malt, single decoction, single bittering addition.

Question when I'm formulating the recipe - does smoking the malt impact its diastatic power? I'm just trying to get my percentages down between the wheat, the pils, and the rauch. My initial thought was to do 50% wheat/25% rauch/ 25% pils - but if the smoking process denatures some of the enzymes in the rauchmalt, I might need to bump up the percentage to the Pils. You know what I mean? I know you can do a beer with 100% rauchmalt, it has enough enzymes to convert itself - but I'm not sure if it has enough to convert itself AND some of the wheat.

Anyone know?

One thing about .cough cough... homegrown is that you never ..cough.. know
how strong it is until cough... you try it.

Seriously, though, I think you need water present to get the enzymes working, so I don't think that just smoking the malt will affect the enzymes.

Malted wheat should have enough enzymes to convert itself. I think you should be fine...you could through in some 6-row just to make sure plus it will help with lautering (if needed).

boo boo said:

Seriously, though, I think you need water present to get the enzymes working, so I don't think that just smoking the malt will affect the enzymes.

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You need water present to get the enzymes working, but you do not need water present to destroy (i.e., denature) them. Dry heat will do it, like when you roast malt. I haven't looked it up, but I believe that most smoked malts are not smoked hot enough to make much difference.

I agree with Beerrific. Your grain bill looks good enough to get you where you want to be. It's a cool question to track down, though.


TL

In an ideal world, I'd like to bump the rauchmalt up to 30% - 35%, but I don't dare without an answer to this question. I suspect what I'll end up doing is backing down a bit on the wheat, maybe to 40% or 45%.

I didn't think malted wheat had ANY enzymes... maybe I'm thinking of flaked?

I can't say about homemade rauch malt, but, i do know the commercial stuff can be used as 100% of the malt. That doesn't mean anyone would do that, it just means it has the diastatic power to convert itself. hope this helps.....

the_bird said:

I didn't think malted wheat had ANY enzymes... maybe I'm thinking of flaked?

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Malted does...I have heard of people doing 100% wheat beers. I believe flaked has none.

the_bird said:

Question when I'm formulating the recipe - does smoking the malt impact its diastatic power? I'm just trying to get my percentages down between the wheat, the pils, and the rauch. My initial thought was to do 50% wheat/25% rauch/ 25% pils - but if the smoking process denatures some of the enzymes in the rauchmalt, I might need to bump up the percentage to the Pils. You know what I mean? I know you can do a beer with 100% rauchmalt, it has enough enzymes to convert itself - but I'm not sure if it has enough to convert itself AND some of the wheat.

Anyone know?

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AFAIK smoking malt should not adversely impact it's DP enough to really be concerned about it. What I do know is that DP typically decreases as color increases, so keeping this in mind, ask yourself what is the color of the smoked (peated) malt that you are using. My guess is it's probably negligible. When you go to the LHBS to pick the stuff up, ask to see the malt analysis for the smoked (peated) malt. my guess is, that it's DP is going to be between 65-100' Lintner.

I hear what you are saying and you should not need to bump up your Pils malt for this grain bill. FWIW malted wheat has the same DP as malted barley. You could push up to 70% wheat and still be fine

I would however recommend 8oz to 16 oz rice hulls and a protein rest as an insurance policy for our huskless friend.

IIRC from oneof the numerous brewing books I have read but not test brewed yet _ the temperature at which the barley is smoked_ will determine net change in diastatic power.

Still doesn't answer the OP question.

I have seen Weyerman Rauchmalt smoked in Bamberg, Germany on the shelves of my local homebrew store. So if the real thing has X% wheat you should be able to match that if you are running the real Rauchmalt.

Alternatively you could smoke your own pale malt in a low temp smoker.

HTH,
S

Or just to be on the safe side, grab some Alpha Amylase next time you're placing an order or at the LHBS.

Another free moment. A lower temp smoker would be like two BBQ grills connected with a horizontal stove pipe, fire in one, malt in the other. A higher temp smokwer would be all in one BBQ.

I think you have some rough temp control even in a single can unit, but that is outside my experience.

Poindexter said:

IIRC from oneof the numerous brewing books I have read but not test brewed yet _ the temperature at which the barley is smoked_ will determine net change in diastatic power.

Still doesn't answer the OP question.

I have seen Weyerman Rauchmalt smoked in Bamberg, Germany on the shelves of my local homebrew store. So if the real thing has X% wheat you should be able to match that if you are running the real Rauchmalt.

Alternatively you could smoke your own pale malt in a low temp smoker.

HTH,
S

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Well, I have no idea what the "real" recipe calls for, so I'm out of luck there. Ultimately I'll be home-smoking, but I haven't been able to find the time to build the smoker yet, so it'll be store-bought rauchmalt for now. I hadn't thought of the simple answer - ask to see the damn sheet with all the information! Of course, the kids who have been working the shop lately don't really have a clue, so that may prove to be an exercise in futility as well.

Since I don't hear anyone telling me I'm insane, I think I'm just gonna wing it

Poindexter said:

Another free moment. A lower temp smoker would be like two BBQ grills connected with a horizontal stove pipe, fire in one, malt in the other. A higher temp smokwer would be all in one BBQ.

I think you have some rough temp control even in a single can unit, but that is outside my experience.

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The plan is to build a hardwood box that will house horizonal racks. I'll build what will basically look like window screens, probably ten or twelve of them, and build a box where they can slide in horizonally into slots and have smoke be pulled in from my outside BBQ (which will be loaded up with wood chips to make the smoke). I can't really describe what it'll be, but I'm confident it will work great for these purposes.

the_bird said:

The plan is to build a hardwood box that will house horizonal racks.

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You might check the Papazian Companion. I know I read this on paper, not the internet... I am pretty sure there is a recipe in the companion also, at least the 3rd edition.

If you keep your temperatures under 185F, you should be ok. That's the temperature range used to kiln lager and pale malts. The smoke itself won't make much difference.

(Where's Mr. Malty?)

Bird, by the sounds of your idea for smoker box, in my experience, very little heat will get into it--not enough to kill the enzymes anyway.

The temp in my smoker box only gets 10° warmer than outside ambient temp. Mine looks similar to your description.

You have pics to share, Dude?

Bird, fun thought problem this PM. I googled "malted wheat diastatic power" and came up with this one. Dunno if you can use malted wheat, but it would be an option:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

htb.com said:

Wheat Malt 3 L Wheat has been used for brewing beer nearly as long as barley and has equal diastatic power. Malted wheat is used for 5-70% of the mash depending on the style. Wheat has no outer husk and therefore has fewer tannins than barley. It is generally smaller than barley and contributes more protein to the beer, aiding in head retention. But it is much stickier than barley due to the higher protein content and may cause lautering problems if not given a "Protein Rest" during the mash.

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Yeah, I don't know why I was thinking malted wheat had no diastatic power, probably because I always see it used with another base malt (I don't know of very many 100%-wheat beers, although now that I think of it, I know some exist).

Ok, I may be new to brewing beer, but if there is one thing I know, it's BBQ.

The key to get a good smokey flavor without getting your food ingrediants too hot is to build a fire with a critical mass of hot coals, and then control the temperature of the fire by controlling air flow.

The one potential problem that I can see in your smoker design is that if your screens impede your airflow too much, you are going to have a hard time getting your smoke to go all the way through your smoker box. Your smoke will just escape through whatever cracks you have in your BBQ / vent to your box.

How are you going to get smoke into your box from your BBQ? Does it have a chimney?

Well, the plan is to finangle a connection between the BBQ and the smoke box using some of the metal stuff you use to vent a dryer. It's not built yet, this is still a work in progress. I was also planning on hooking up a small computer fan or something similar to pull the smoke in and to make sure that it's distributed throughout the box.

That creates an interesting dilemma.

If you 1) build a fire in your BBQ pit, then 2) connect the hose directly to the BBQ, and then 3) put a fan to draw air into your box, you might be drawing additional air into the BBQ, and that could create a furnace. The more air you feed your fire, the hotter it will be. You might have trouble keeping the heat down.

I have seen some good cold fish smokers before that used electric elements to create smoke without really starting a fire. This might be your best bet.

Try these websites for some ideas:



http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/coldsmoker.html

Now, I don't reccommend building a smoke box out of a cardboard box, but this guy seems to have the same type of idea as you have.

That is really go way to build a cold smoker. Alton Brown did the same thing in an episode where he cold smoked salmon. The hot plate is turned up just high enough to allow the wood chips to smoke.

Sorry I missed your post.

I don't know much about building and operating a smoker to make your own smoked malt, but I can comment on your inclusion of smoked malt in your current recipe. The Pils and wheat should have plenty of enzymes (alpha and DP) to convert your mash no matter what the DP is in the 25% smoked malt. If you want to go to 35% smoked malt, I would feel this will work. I would suggest if you try 35%, you do an iodine test periodically to measure conversion. I would begin testing with iodine after 45 minutes into the mash.

Smoked malts are made by passing smoke through moist malt. The moisture allows for the capture of the smoke flavors. Depending on the malt temperature during smoking, the enzymes may or may not be denatured. As previously said, a good measure of the enzyme levels in a malt is the color. The darker the color, the less enzymes survives processing. A color past say say 15 L has little enzyme. I don't know what the color is on a smoked malt, but I suspect it is not all that high so it may contain some DP. However, make the assumption it is little to none. You should be OK at the 35% level.

I hope this helps.

Dr Malt

I'm pretty sure that smoking doesn't affect the DP if done properly. I remember reading somewhere in the Schlenkerla website that some of their brews are 100% smoked malt.