Conditioning Question

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HopSong

HopSong

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Ok.. so, I just bottled and kegged a batch of an APA. Moved everything from the crashed fermenter to the bottling bucket and stirred in the corn sugar.

Transferred 3 G to my 3 G corny keg and bottled the rest in 12 oz bottles.

So, the question comes up.......

Why do you have to condition bottles and not condition the kegs? The comments I always see are that the flavor improves during the conditioning process.. as well as developing the carbonation.

Had I NOT added sugar to the beer in the keg.. would it have turned out worse than if I had added it?

So, the question, I think, boils down to the purpose of conditioning. Is it only for carbonation... or is it for both carbonation and flavor? If for both.. why would we all not want to naturally carbonate the beers vs just hitting the the keg with 'store bought' CO2???

Hope the question makes sense.
 
Ok,as is common on here,terminology gets lost in translation. Carbonation is the act of getting the bubbles into the beer that change hoe we percieve aroma & flavor. Conditioning is different. It's the act of getting the flavors & aromas in the beer to mellow & differentiate each other. Hop flavors change into the aromas & flavors associated with the particulat variety at the # of minutes of their asddition to the boil or dry hop. The malts associated flavors they're noted for become fuller. Furthermore,conditioning takes an average of a week longer than carbonation from my observations thus far. Hope this clarifies things.
 
C-Rider said:
Good question, so do you "keggers" then leave your beers undrunk for a week or two to "condition"?
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I typically taste a pint every other day until I'm happy with the flavor. On average, I'd say it takes my beers about 2 weeks in the keg before the malt flavors really show through like I prefer. But I go straight from fermenter at 66-68 to a keg, then cold crash it. So 2 weeks from date I put the keg in the fridge. I've even had hop flavor die off half way through week 1 but come back strong as ever during week 3.... It's always a mystery to me, but usually ends up as a pleasant surprise.
 
I take a lot of care to make sure my beers are ready to drink when they come out of the fermentor so I don't need to let perfectly drinkable beer sit so it could be better. That means proper pitching rates, pure O2 oxygenation, and tight fermentation temperature control. That means I can package my beer 3-5 days after it hits final gravity, and carbonate it however I want (bottle conditioning or force carbonation in a keg) and drink it as soon as I want. Kegs usually sit for a week if I don't use gelatin just to make 100% sure that the beer is clear, but that's a presentation thing, not for any flavor development since I typically fine my beers.

There are definitely styles I brew that need some age to get great, but that is all done in bulk, typically. My hybrid beers and pseudo-lagers usually get lagered in the keg for a couple months, and big beers and very roasty/dark ones may sit in primary or secondary for a few extra weeks for flavors to meld, but most of what I make are not beers I want to age, APAs, IPAs, ambers, lower gravity dark beers etc etc. Stuff I want to have on tap all the time, basically.
 
daksin said:
I take a lot of care to make sure my beers are ready to drink when they come out of the fermentor so I don't need to let perfectly drinkable beer sit so it could be better. That means proper pitching rates, pure O2 oxygenation, and tight fermentation temperature control. That means I can package my beer 3-5 days after it hits final gravity, and carbonate it however I want (bottle conditioning or force carbonation in a keg) and drink it as soon as I want. Kegs usually sit for a week if I don't use gelatin just to make 100% sure that the beer is clear, but that's a presentation thing, not for any flavor development since I typically fine my beers.

There are definitely styles I brew that need some age to get great, but that is all done in bulk, typically. My hybrid beers and pseudo-lagers usually get lagered in the keg for a couple months, and big beers and very roasty/dark ones may sit in primary or secondary for a few extra weeks for flavors to meld, but most of what I make are not beers I want to age, APAs, IPAs, ambers, lower gravity dark beers etc etc. Stuff I want to have on tap all the time, basically.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. A good process will yield a better beer, faster. My first fermentation temperature controlled beer is still in the primary, so I'm hoping to have the same results as daksin. Daksin, did you ever have to wait on beers? Or have you maintained the same process from the beginning?
 
Well, the first batch I ever made was an AG wheat that fermented between 85 and 95F. That's a mistake you don't make twice. I had fermentation temperature totally locked down on batch 2. Before I started making starters, my beers were definitely better after a long primary, though. The addition of pure O2 this year hasn't really improved the flavor of my beer (it was great once I started making starters) but it has sped up my fermentations quite a bit.
 
daksin said:
Well, the first batch I ever made was an AG wheat that fermented between 85 and 95F. That's a mistake you don't make twice. I had fermentation temperature totally locked down on batch 2. Before I started making starters, my beers were definitely better after a long primary, though. The addition of pure O2 this year hasn't really improved the flavor of my beer (it was great once I started making starters) but it has sped up my fermentations quite a bit.
Click to expand...

That's good to know. On the past couple beers I've made starters and am pitching the correct amount of yeast, according to a happy medium of mr malty and beersmiths yeast calculations. I'm about to keg the first beer that went thru primary fermentation in my temp controlled freezer, and I also used pure o2 on that beer. So I'm hoping those 3 recent changes will start to improve the quality of my beers.
 
We are certainly getting off topic.. I don't have my question answered.

When we add priming sugar to a bottling bucket and bottle we have to wait for the beer to "condition". Does that simply mean carbonation? I would think that all the "clean-up" would have taken place in the primary/secondary and it is just carbonation.

I've also read about brewers commonly transferring directly from the FV to the keg with no sugar. Some "condition" and most don't... just pressurize long enough to get the proper amount of CO2 and drink.

I've seen the word "condition" used in enough different ways that I'm now truly confused.
 
HbgBill said:
We are certainly getting off topic.. I don't have my question answered.

When we add priming sugar to a bottling bucket and bottle we have to wait for the beer to "condition". Does that simply mean carbonation? I would think that all the "clean-up" would have taken place in the primary/secondary and it is just carbonation.

I've also read about brewers commonly transferring directly from the FV to the keg with no sugar. Some "condition" and most don't... just pressurize long enough to get the proper amount of CO2 and drink.

I've seen the word "condition" used in enough different ways that I'm now truly confused.
Click to expand...

See my post #2 above...
 
HbgBill said:
We are certainly getting off topic.. I don't have my question answered.

When we add priming sugar to a bottling bucket and bottle we have to wait for the beer to "condition". Does that simply mean carbonation? I would think that all the "clean-up" would have taken place in the primary/secondary and it is just carbonation.

I've also read about brewers commonly transferring directly from the FV to the keg with no sugar. Some "condition" and most don't... just pressurize long enough to get the proper amount of CO2 and drink.

I've seen the word "condition" used in enough different ways that I'm now truly confused.
Click to expand...

There is some confusion in terminology- in regards to bottle or keg conditioning, we are primarily talking about just carbonating the beer by referentation of simple sugars that have been added back to the beer. This is different and distinct from the time we give beer to get good, or aging, which can also be called conditioning.

Nothing special happens to beer when you add sugar to it and allow it to referment in the bottle- just carbonation.
 
HbgBill said:
We are certainly getting off topic.. I don't have my question answered.

When we add priming sugar to a bottling bucket and bottle we have to wait for the beer to "condition". Does that simply mean carbonation? I would think that all the "clean-up" would have taken place in the primary/secondary and it is just carbonation.

I've also read about brewers commonly transferring directly from the FV to the keg with no sugar. Some "condition" and most don't... just pressurize long enough to get the proper amount of CO2 and drink.

I've seen the word "condition" used in enough different ways that I'm now truly confused.
Click to expand...

Brewers and commercial breweries will use the term "condition" loosely to mean a couple of things. It can be used to describe bottle conditioned beer... Which is essentially beer that is racked into bottles and it naturally carbonates with or without the addition of extra sugars. It is more commonly used to describe a period where the beer is left alone to clean up/evolve/sit idly while flavors reach true potential.

I typically leave my beers in a primary fermenter for at least 14 days, then move them over to a secondary fermenter for at least a week. While they are sitting in this secondary, they are conditioning. The beer is basically done fermenting, though I may see a 1 or 2 pt drop in gravity during this time.

Did we do a little better with our answers?
 
Yep.. I guess my beers are conditioned :) I do the same as you, Carson.. ~3 weeks in primary.. cold crash in the cooler for a week and bottle/keg. This last batch I racked to a bucket with sugar and put half in a 3 gallon keg and the rest in bottles. I guess, even with the sugar in the beer, I can carb and drink the keg beer.. but, I think I'll let both bottles and keg sit for one week anyhow.. then put in the cold box for a week.. including the keg under pressure.

The term has always been a bit confusing. I've always used it to mean after bottling.. but, sounds like my beers have already 'conditioned' after my normal process. Have plenty of pipeline so not in a hurry to tap.

Thanks
 

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