HERMS Coil...

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Stevorino

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I'm building a HERMS system and haven't found much to describe how people are building the coils on the inside of their HLT.


I've always assumed that you just buy a normal immersion chiller, chop off the ends and then somehow connect it to the sides of the keggle...but now that I think of it, I'd imagine it's more difficult than that. Anyone mind describing what they did?
 
I didnt describe it in my thread? Granted I have a cooler, but it aint that hard yo :rockin: You will need some compression fittings.
 
I made my coil out of a 60 ft. roll of 1/2" soft copper. I laid it out flat on the living room floor and roll it aound a empty keg to make the coil.

HTL.jpg
 
CopperTubingSales.com :: ICS Indsutries :: is the best place to find a good price for copper tubing. If I may, I would like to sway you to the RIMS dark side. A 1500W element will allow you to recirc on a 15A circuit and you won't have to worry about $50+ worth of tubing.

The box of miracles compels you.

BTW-Sorry for not answering the PM, a local craft brewery and a home project has taken both my soberness and my time, respectively.
 
Refrigeration..

My 50' arrived from coppertubingsales.com last Friday. I used a 16qt pot for my coil diameter of about 11.5-12". I might cut a foot off to make a better pickup tube for my MT before I put the compression fittings on and screw it up to the HLT.
 
What are "Compression Fittings" are these just the joints? How do they connect to the tubing?

1/2'' The Width to go?
 
The size of the fittings will depend on the size of the copper tubing. You will need them on the ends to be abe to affix hose barbs or quick disconnects for your plumbing. Not sure how people are sealing them through the side of thier kettles.
 
Compression fittings are used to connect copper tubing to pipe with threads among other similar connections. The end that connects the copper has a nut that goes over the copper and when you screw the nut (with the copper tubing end) onto the rest of the compression fitting it tightens up or compresses to form the connection.

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I am sure somebody can chime in with a pic with the tubing in a compression fitting...
 
So essentially, compression fittings are ends/joints that create their own seal when screwed onto the copper tubing -- So I should be able to just get some kind of end for the copper that can screw onto a weldless fitting to go through the side of my keggles.
 
Ahoy hoy,
For my 100th post, I will state for the record, that I have acquired a 50ft stainless steel wort chiller, in 3/8ths, that i will use in my herms. I have no idea how effective or well it will work, but i got a killer deal on it and its very very well made, one of the best store bought ones I have seen.I actually got 2 for the price of one, and use the other for its intended purpose. Once I get my SS herms setup, Ill post as to whether I made a great choice or a poor one.
Stay warm all.....
 
Typically you should see the SS coil as 94% as efficient at transferring heat as copper. Pretty good in fact. Dont ask me why I know.
 
Did you just soder those joints? What about through the pot/keg wall?


Yes I soldered the joints and they go through the kettle walls with weld free fittings. I don't like to use refer coils, to thin, start to leak after a short time. I am a plumber by trade and get my copper from the wholesale supply house in town.
 
So essentially, compression fittings are ends/joints that create their own seal when screwed onto the copper tubing -- So I should be able to just get some kind of end for the copper that can screw onto a weldless fitting to go through the side of my keggles.

Yes, you might be looking for a 1/2" compression fitting (If your copper is 3/8" I.D. x 1/2" O.D. tubing) with 1/2" MPT on the other side.
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Yes, you might be looking for a 1/2" compression fitting (If your copper is 3/8" I.D. x 1/2" O.D. tubing) with 1/2" MPT on the other side.
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+1, that will get you through the side of the kettle and allow you to put a fitting on the outside.
 
Typically you should see the SS coil as 94% as efficient at transferring heat as copper. Pretty good in fact. Dont ask me why I know.
Just to be clear to other people, that doesn't mean that your HERMS output temp with a stainless coil will only be 94% of that if you had used copper.

It's impossible to make a blanket statement such as stainless will always only transfer 94% of the heat as copper and I'm sure that's not what Pol meant. The important thing to remember is that SS may actually work 100% as well as copper if you use a coil that's long enough for HERMS setups. Copper's actually something like 40 (or was it 400?) times more efficient at heat transfer but that doesn't mean you need 40-400 times as long a coil in stainless to match copper.

For example, say the wort going through the HERMS coil is only a few degrees below the temperature of the HLT water. At that differential it may take 11 feet of say 1/2" OD stainless to raise the wort temp the same amount as say 10 feet of copper. But if your coil's say 25 feet long it's a moot point. Both will work.

There are a million variables involved including:

- temp differential between the two liquids
- OD of the coil
- length of the coil
- speed of the fluid
- whether the coil is convoluted
- and so on...

There's a great page that described the limits of HERMS and what it should (and shouldn't) be used for here: http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/HERMS.html

Unfortunately it's offline now so I'll post a cached version here as I'm assuming the author won't mind:

Many people undertake the HERMS or RIMS approach to brewing for the wrong reason. Let me be clear about this. The major benefits of the recirculating concept are:

1. Superior clarity of wort
2. Temperature control
3. Repeatability

Notice that "step mashing" is not in there. That is because, in my opinion, the recirculating concept is not as well suited to step mashing as other techniques such as decoction or hot water infusion. This is a no-brainer when you consider that you have to recirculate for a period of time before the mash can change temperature, but if you dump in hot water or a portion of boiled mash (decoction) and stir, the temperature increase is almost instantaneous.

I have seen several claims in the homebrewing community from brewers who say they can get "X" degrees/minute temperature rise in the mash. I'm here to tell you that these claims depend on many factors and are more than likely only telling a partial story. Let's start by setting up some ground rules for mashing in a recirculating system:

1. The desired mash or rest temperature of the wort should not be exceeded at any time. This means that wort exiting a coil or RIMS chamber should never be above whatever temperature you are trying to achieve.

2. Stirring the mash after initial dough-in is bad. If you have a recirculating system, you don't have to stir the mash. In fact, if you stir, you undo 33% of the benefits of a recirculating system. I've tried it both ways, never stirring and stirring about every 15 minutes or so and there wasn't any difference in efficiency or any other measurable parameter. The only thing that happened was that the wort that recirculated for 1 hour was noticeably clearer than wort that recirculated for only 15 minutes. DON'T STIR THE MASH!

3. You can't recirculate too fast or else you will compact the mash. In practice, I have found that about 1 gallon per minute is the maximum flow rate you can recirculate and still avoid grain bed compaction.

With these rules in place, let's talk about what happens when you do a temperature increase for the mash. Let's say you're doing a low temperature rest at 142 F and want to step up to 155 F. At this point, the wort exiting your coil is at 142 F. When the controller's set temperature in increased to 155 F, the heater comes on to heat the water. The water will continue to heat until the wort exiting the coil is at 155 F at which point it will stop heating and adjust itself to maintain that 155 F exit temperature. Let's say this takes 5 minutes. It sounds like you got 13 degrees in 5 mintues or 2.6 degrees/minute. No you didn't. What you got was a cupful of wort deposited on top of the mash bed that is at 155 F. The rest of the wort is below 155 F and needs to be recirculated through the coil in order for the entire mash to be at 155 F. In a 10 gallon batch, you can have around 8 gallons of wort in your mash. At one gallon per minute, that is an additional 8 minutes or a total of 13 minutes to raise the entire mash temperature 13 degrees. This gives a more realistic 1 degree/minute. For a 5 gallon batch, there is about half as much wort, so your time is decreased by 4 minutes which yields about 1.4 degrees per minute.

This is the reality of how temperature ramps occur. If you must have a temperature rise faster than this, your only option is to pump faster or heat the water faster. If you pump faster, I can almost guarantee that you will have problems with a compacted mash bed. If you heat the water faster, you are only saving a few minutes since the majority of the ramp time is consumed after the wort temperature at the coil exit reaches the set temperature. The entire mash has to be recirculated to achieve that desired temperature.

"So", you ask, "what about the homebrewers who are claiming they can get 4 degrees per minute?". I have the following to say:

1. They are heating wort above the set temperature and stirring the mash to speed up the process. Bad idea.
2. They are measuring the wort temperature at the coil exit and thinking that it is the temperature of the entire mash. Overlooking the obvious.
3. Their batch size is so small that the recirculation time goes quick. Misleading.
4. They are lying like fishermen. Happens all the time.

It's really as simple as that. Which is why I continually tell people that if you are building a recirculating system to do step mashing, you had better be sure that 1 to 1.5 degrees/minute will give you what you want.

Now, I must point out that for most (certainly not all) styles of beer, step mashing just isn't necessary. Today's well modified malts do not benefit from a protein rest, and in many cases can actually suffer from one. For the most part, your desired fermentable/unfermentable sugar profile can be achieved through a single temperature infusion. I know this takes all the sexiness out of it, but believe me, the temperature control that a properly built recirculating system can give you is unmatched. Add in the clarity of the recirculated wort, and the recirculating system is more than worthwhile.

Now, having said all that, I do use the HERMIT to ramp up to mash out. This is typically a temperature increase from 150 F to 168 F. I have not experienced any ill effects from a 1 degree/minute ramp in this range.

So, in conclusion, be a skeptic. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Step mashing is really an advanced technique for brewers who have their fundamentals down pat. If you can't make consistently great beer with single temperature infusion, you really shouldn't attempt a step mash. Just like anything else, if you master the basics, everything else is just icing on the cake.

Words of wisdom and refreshing to read.

For what it's worth my HLT will have a stainless HERMS coil in it. I'm doing mostly single infusion mashes and the HERMS in my setup will be only for the following reasons as the author stated:

1. Superior clarity of wort
2. Temperature control
3. Repeatability


Kal
 
I went ultra simple with my HERMS: 50 ft of copper tubing coiled around a pot, and the ends just extend up and over the top of the HLT. I attached the hoses via SS hose clamps. No welding/drilling of your kettle required.
 
I can actually do a step mash with my HERMS by using a portion of the HLT HEX water to reach my second step. Granted I had to create a complex spreadsheet to calculate temps, volumes and times... but it is possible now to go from 122F to 153F in a matter of 2 minutes with my HERMS! It will let me know the temps and times for the HTL HEX to reach the STEP infusion temp, additional water to add to the HLT HEX to cool to recirc temps (qty and temp) etc... pretty sweet if you ask me.
 
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