Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging

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Hmm, Bru'n Water recommends 5.3 - 5.5 at room temperature? EZ Water recommends 5.4-5.6. I personally tend to shoot for about 5.4.

I tht Brunwater was a bit lower...obviously. 5.4 is a good place. IIRC Martin has said he likes it a bit higher (5.4) for darker beers and a bit lower (5.2) for lighter beers.
 
Pretty much. You may have a very small amount of additioanal conversion going on during the sparge, but the vast majority will occur during your mash, assuming you mashed properly. :D

True. The first part of troubleshooting efficiency issues is to figure out where you're losing it. If your mash conversion is poor (<90%), it doesn't matter how effecient your sparge/later is.

If you're getting significant efficiency improvement with a hotter sparge, your mash conversion probably isn't as good as it could be.

There's no sugar in solid form to be dissolved. Your mash starts out with solid starches, which are drawn into solution as part of enzyme conversion. At no point do you have actual crystals of sugar waiting to be picked up by the water.

Furthermore, the solubility of sugar in even 150ºF water is well above anything that would be a limit for brewers. I'm going off of memory here, but I believe the number is somewhere around 1.400.

Some people do notice increased efficiency from a warm sparge, but I never have. I've sparged with both hot and cold water over dozens of batches, and my efficiency is incredibly consistent. I suspect those who are getting better efficiency from a mash out are either (a) ending the mash a bit early, and the mash out speeds up the last remaining conversion or (b) having grain bed fluidity problems and are thus getting a more complete lauter from warm temperature.

This.

Yes, but if you get really technical about it, even if you're not at the solubility limit, i think the sugars will have a stronger driving force to migrate from the grains to the bulk liquid at higher temps. At least that's what I think I remember from p-chem. :p

Now, whether that change in driving force is actually relevant in a typical homebrew situation..... totally different question, and one to which I must admit I have no answer.

Kaiser did a cold sparge experiment and didn't notice any significant difference, similar to what Mal noted (other than it takes longer to heat up your wort with a cold sparge). A good discussion on it here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/
 
Certainly, but remember, there's never a point where you have solid crystal sugar waiting to be snatched up by the water. It's not as though the solid grain with solid starches turning into solid sugars, which then get dissolved. The entire enzymatic process of the mash happens already in solution.

If you've got remaining solids at the end of the mash, they're not sugars but starches. If you've got significant remaining starches, relative increases in solubility won't help you.

At least, that's my understanding. :)

Agreed, but you have a bunch of water held in the grain material, and i'm thinking that water also has sugar dissolved in it. So even though you're not dissolving any sugar, I would think you would get more efficient transfer when there's a greater driving force between the sugar water absorbed in the grain, and the less sugar-y water you're sparging with, which could occur either by having a larger volume of water (therefore less concentration) or a higher sugar solubility (therefore less "relative concentration").

I would like to make it quite clear, if its not already already so, that I'm talking on a very "technicality" basis here, and not claiming that it makes an actual measurable difference, because I would be lying if i said I was sure it did. :p
 
Agreed, but you have a bunch of water held in the grain material, and i'm thinking that water also has sugar dissolved in it. So even though you're not dissolving any sugar, I would think you would get more efficient transfer when there's a greater driving force between the sugar water absorbed in the grain, and the less sugar-y water you're sparging with, which could occur either by having a larger volume of water (therefore less concentration) or a higher sugar solubility (therefore less "relative concentration").

Hmm... I can't really comment on the effect of temperature gradients on perfusion, but if you've got significant stratification in your wort like this you've got much bigger problems. I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but it's a bit like turning on your AC because your kitchen is on fire. :mug:
 
Hmm... I can't really comment on the effect of temperature gradients on perfusion, but if you've got significant stratification in your wort like this you've got much bigger problems. I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but it's a bit like turning on your AC because your kitchen is on fire. :mug:

I'm not referring to temperature gradients, I'm talking about effective concentration gradients. :D
 
BrewKnurd said:
I'm not referring to temperature gradients, I'm talking about effective concentration gradients. :D

Right, but you're saying that a relatively higher temperature equalizes those concentration gradients faster/better, aren't you? If not, I think I'm completely misunderstanding you. Is this what you're referring to as solubility?
 
Right, but you're saying that a relatively higher temperature equalizes those concentration gradients faster/better, aren't you? If not, I think I'm completely misunderstanding you. Is this what you're referring to as solubility?

I'm saying that higher temperatures lower the "relative concentration" of the solution. I made up the term "relative concentration" as an analog to relative humidity. If you have a pot of water in a room with 50% relative humidity and 10% relative humidity, the pot with in the room with 10% relative humidity will evaporate faster, even though you are nowhere near the maximum concentration of water than the air can hold in either situation.

Similarly, my completely theoretical argument is that the same absolute concentration of sugar in water of two different temperatures has a different "relative concentration" in the two situations, and therefore provides a different gradient for transport of dissolved sugar absorbed in the solids into the mash to the water.

Anyways, all this is stupid. Kai did an experiment that says it basically doesn't matter, and I have no problem believing that. :D
 
FlyGuy said:
The question of how to improve efficiency often comes up, and I sometimes get PMs asking advice. Rather than repeat the same information, I thought I would write my thoughts down in this thread so that it could be referenced in the future.

Efficiency issues are often difficult to diagnose -- it is just something you have to figure out through trial and error (for this reason, always take detailed notes of your recipe and process each and every brew!). Here are some ideas to think about, in approximate order of importance:

&#149; Your crush will have a big impact on your mash efficiency (although some debate this point). Regardless, the biggest gains in efficiency that users tend to report are when they improve their crush (e.g., buy their own mill). If your LHBS is crushing your grain for you, consider that most shops will set their crush so that their customers get between 60 and 70% efficiency. They may claim it is to help brewers avoid stuck mashes, but conveniently, it also helps them to sell more grain!

&#149; The ratio of sparge water to mash water is a critical factor determining efficiency when batch sparging. Some brewers forget that high gravity recipes will have proportionally less sparge water (because so much water was needed to mash the large volume of grain), and therefore, they will also have less water to dissolve extracted sugars resulting in lower extract efficiency. This seems to be particularly true for those who batch sparge. The two common solutions are either to add extra sparge water and lengthen the boil to compensate, or to simply plan for the reduction in efficiency in the recipe.

&#149; It is very important to hit your mash temperature and hold it for the length of the mash to get full conversion. A common problem is that people miss their temp (e.g., didn&#146;t pre-heat their mash tun or their thermometer is out of calibration), and their extract efficiency suffers because the enzymes in the mash were operating in less-than-optimal conditions.

&#149; Wort losses in the system (e.g., incomplete draining of mash tun or other dead spaces in gear like counter-flow chillers, etc.) can take a big toll on your brewhouse efficiency. These are sometimes overlooked because people are too focused on their extract efficiency rather than their overall (brewhouse) efficiency.

&#149; It is hard to accurately compute efficiency if you don't have precise measurements of your water/wort. Sometimes people think they are getting poor efficiency in their system, but it just turns out they are over-estimating the amount of water used in a brew or under-estimating the amount of wort collected.

&#149; When mixing your grain with water at the beginning of the mash, it is CRITICAL that everything is mixed completely to avoid doughballs or dry lumps of grain. If the grain is not sufficiently wetted, it won't convert, robbing you of efficiency points.

&#149; When batch sparging, the temperature of the mash-out and/or sparge water influence your extract efficiency. You want to make sure that either your mash-out infusion or your first batch sparge addition are hot enough to raise the grist to as close to 170 F as possible. This allows more sugar to be dissolved and reduces viscosity to facilitate easier lautering, both of which will improve your efficiency.

&#149; Also when batch sparging, it is critical that you stir the mash fully after adding mash-out water and/or the first sparge water addition. It may help to stir before each subsequent sparge water addition, but that depends on your system.

&#149; pH of the mash is usually not a problem for most brewers, but some water sources can be problematic. If so, the use of a pH stabilizer, like Five Star 5.2 buffer can help achieve an optimal mash pH, and may result in a 5 - 10% increase in efficiency.

Sparging batch
 
Since completing my prototype system, I've been getting consistent 99% efficiency rates (ibrewmaster).

I condition my grains (have to here, the ambient temperatures are generally always at or over 30 degrees C) set my first crush at 3 business cards and my secondary crush at 1 business card. Technical I know (lol)

I brew 80 litre batches, with up to 16kg grain bill down to 11kg grain bill. I start with heated 66 litres of water for all grain bills, mash my grains, raise my mash tun, vorlauf (not sure how to spell that) with 40 litres of the wort and then sparge when the wort is at grain level with 35 ltres 82 degrees C water. This takes about 30 minutes for both steps and leaves me with a boil volume of around 86 litres. I also just leave the malt pipe hanging over the mash tun until the end of the brew. By the time all is done, the malt pipe has drained completely and the mash has been vigorously boiling for around 90 minutes.

Before this system and the secondary crush, my efficiency was stuck at 65%.
 
Sorry, didn't do the last post very well

IMG_0451_resized.jpg
 
I'm only on page 3. Ssssoooo much info, just on those 3. I feel as if I'm studying at the greatest beer university in the world to become a one of you. "Legend brewmaster" I love reading all these threads. This one has really fired up my interest. I will graduate from Beer Tech University. B.T.U for instance. "sparge water"? "slow fun off, fast run off"? Let the sparge water slowly flowly run through the mash or grains. So much info. I must read again. "extraction effeicency". Man.
 
I don't quit understand run off. I undestand run off time. May depend on what is being brewed alobg with tge mill size. May also be effecting run off time. But what exactly is "run off"? I'm rereading page 2. So mybe my question is premature.
 
I have my Barley Crusher closed as far as it can go- about 0.015". Beer and efficiency are fine.

I boil off about 2.5-3 gallons in a typical 90 minute boil. So I'm getting about 8 gallons total out of the tun for a 5 gallon batch by compensation.

Would I be better off using less sparge water and just topping up the kettle pre-boil? If it would improve my brew I'll certainly try this.

Sparge water? Cold water you pour back in to cool your wort, and refill what has been evaped off?
 
I started to get massive improvement in my batch sparging when I:
Crushed the grain a bit finer
Let the mash go for at least 2 hours
Sparge with more water and do two sparges.

I use an Eski (cooler) with a total volume of about 25 litres which I top up as far as I can with water for the mash, and for both sparges. I end up with about 30 litres of liquid from this, which reduces down to about 28 litres after boiling for an hour. From about 5 kg of grain, I end up with at least 25 litres of beer with a gravity of at least 1.045, sometimes as high as 1.050. That is 25 litres kegged/bottled, not before loss from trub etc.
This is heaps better than when I only mashed for an hour and used less water.
 
I would be curious to know from those of you who track their grind setting on their mills...what is your prefered setting. I don't own a mill, but my brew supply store has an industrial grade mill with a caliper on it. I noticed the other day when I was grinding out a grain bill that the setting was on.032" I asked one of the emplyees who has worked there a long time and he said that was their "standard setting". Not for nutin', but I have been getting low efficiencies (60%) for over a year now (I have my brew system calibrated down to the last ounce of fluid) and have been scratching my head ever since. When I changed the settings to grind at .020", the guy freaked out and pushed me to pick up some rice hulls to prevent a stuck sparge, which I did just in case. I am starting to wonder if the .032" setting was a bit too course and may be the part of the problem.

Thoughts?

I just did an overnight mash and got an immediate 15% increase in efficiency from low 70's up to high 80's. My grain is crushed pretty well, and everyone keeps telling me just crush finer, but I dont think that is the issue and I am getting way better efficiency just by letting it sit there longer. The other advantage is that I can finish the brew easily by lunch the next day, rather than waste an entire day making a brew.
 
I would be curious to know from those of you who track their grind setting on their mills...what is your prefered setting. I don't own a mill, but my brew supply store has an industrial grade mill with a caliper on it. I noticed the other day when I was grinding out a grain bill that the setting was on.032" I asked one of the emplyees who has worked there a long time and he said that was their "standard setting". Not for nutin', but I have been getting low efficiencies (60%) for over a year now (I have my brew system calibrated down to the last ounce of fluid) and have been scratching my head ever since. When I changed the settings to grind at .020", the guy freaked out and pushed me to pick up some rice hulls to prevent a stuck sparge, which I did just in case. I am starting to wonder if the .032" setting was a bit too course and may be the part of the problem.

Thoughts?

I just did an overnight mash and got an immediate 15% increase in efficiency from low 70's up to high 80's. My grain is crushed pretty well, and everyone keeps telling me just crush finer, but I dont think that is the issue and I am getting way better efficiency just by letting it sit there longer. The other advantage is that I can finish the brew easily by lunch the next day, rather than waste an entire day making a brew.
 
I have found that I need to do a primary and a secondary crush. I end up with a very fine grind and I don't have a stuck sparge, but efficiency still suffers if I don't do a 2 hour mash. My pre-boil gravity is always under with a 60 minute, but with 120 minutes I generally hit the pre-boil gravity right on the button (with the "iBrewmaster" software showing 99%).
My crush settings are:
Primary crush - .0475"
Secondary crush - .0155"

yes, 4 decimal places

My volumes and sparge time for an 84 litre(22 gals) 90 minute boil, 66 litre (17.5gals) batch are:
66 litre mash - 120mins.
vorlauf 40 litres, 30-45mins.
sparge 26 litres, 30mins.

Finished volumes change slightly dependant on ambient temps and wind speed.

Hope this helps.:tank:
 
Very helpful info right there, I definitely need work in the sparging area, but atleast I got 5 points higher yesterday versus the last batch. Work in progress.
 
shoot... how do I avoid that? Other than not over-crushing grains?

To be honest, it's not as much of a worry as it sounds like. It depends a lot in what kind of lauter system you use. I've never had a stuck run off in 446 batches using a hose braid. Generally, using a pump without a grant or running off too quickly with a poorly designed lautering system are the causes of it. I start my runoff slowly to set the grainbed without compacting it, and after that I increase runoff to full speed.
 
How soon do you increase your runoff rate (during first running, second running...) or is there a good way to tell if your grain bed is set? Ive only batch sparged twice and I've been a little timid increasing my runoff speed.
 
How soon do you increase your runoff rate (during first running, second running...) or is there a good way to tell if your grain bed is set? Ive only batch sparged twice and I've been a little timid increasing my runoff speed.

I vorlauf a qt. or two slowly then go to ful speed runoff.
 
Brewed up a big stout the other day and ended up with 90% brewhouse efficiency. I've never had anything over 85% in the past but this time I decided to condition my grain about 10 mins before crushing. I tightened my crush from .35 down to .30 and got a great, fluffy crush after conditioning. I'm definitely a convert now! :ban:
 
I decided to condition my grain about 10 mins before crushing. I tightened my crush from .35 down to .30 and got a great, fluffy crush after conditioning. I'm definitely a convert now! :ban:

What did you do to condition your grains before crushing?
 
So, is there a measurement to tell your LHBS to crush your grain to, so you can get better efficiency?

Nope. It's gonna depend on your own equipment. Even if you know how someone else's mill is set, it won't necessarily be the right setting for your lautering system.
 
To be honest, it's not as much of a worry as it sounds like. It depends a lot in what kind of lauter system you use. I've never had a stuck run off in 446 batches using a hose braid. Generally, using a pump without a grant or running off too quickly with a poorly designed lautering system are the causes of it. I start my runoff slowly to set the grainbed without compacting it, and after that I increase runoff to full speed.

Ironically, I had a stuck sparge on the first AG batch I did last week. My LHBS REALLY grinds the malt though. I guess they aren't worried about selling more grain
 
I have read the first few pages of this thread and the last two so forgive me if It been brought up but I am reletively new to all grain...I did a couple batches on the stove with a cooler MT and they came out ok but efficiency was low
Now I use and electric herms setup I build and whle still using a cooler mash tun and a similiar screen for the bottom (I use the cheap bargain outlet kettle screen tube but with a smaller diameter fine copper screen tube inside of it acting as a double filter)

Anyway I have brewed two batches this way and sparged at about 153-154 and leat my 12v pump run at full speed recirculating the wort though the herms coil the whole hour. then I have fly sparged with 3 -3.5 gallons of 170 degree water at the end... this has resulted in higher efficiencies than the kits I am using have specified... my last beer being a honey brown from northern had a og of 1.54 and a pumpkin ale I made and followed the recipe to the letter was supposed to have a og of 1.42-1.46 and I got 1.54? these readings are from a refractometer and I realize the adjuncts make it harder to determine efficiencies. but I'd figure I'd throw my finding out there...

Oh and they are taking forever to ferment compared to my previous beers... the pumpkin ale was made jan 5th and is still bubbling about a bubble a minute? and it was going very vigorously a day and a half after pitching the liguid starter. I pitched with the wort about 3 degree lower than optimum range after reading it helped reduce off flavors and Ive kept it between 61-63 degrees the whole time... my honey brown was brewed on the 12th and that is down to a bubble about every 2 minutes... Usually my beers are done in about 8-14 days? I will be brewing an oktoberfest and cream ale this weekend and am particularly interested in my results with the oktoberfest....
I'm wondering if the constant circulation with the herms system is the only reason for such gravity increases? suprisingly my filter works awsome with no signs of stuck grainbed. the kits I have are pre crushed because they were purchased prior to my new grainmill but I have almost 90lbs of uncrushed grains coming tomorrow to experiment with also.

I also read something about many of the newer American 2 row grains being engineered now for higher efficiency in another thread? I wonder if this is having effects on some of the reported efficiencies reported here?
 
So I made an oktoberfest kit from midwest today... kit was for 5gallon at an estimated og 1.066-1.068 and I ended up with just under 6 gallons of beer at an og of 1.075! is this going to be an issue? Any ideas why my efficiency seems so high? I only sparged with 4 gallons? ended up with just over 7 gallons preboil. checked my refractometer with water and its right on. my mash fluctuated a bit from 150 to 158 during the 70 minutes I mashed. (still getting used to the new herms setup) .. I also fly sparged much slower this time over a course of 25 minutes.

I'm going to start another thread on this since I dont want to take this one off topic... Just realized its a sticky.
 
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