The first few weeks you'll easily have 2b cells/ML. After that you get closer to 1b/ML. Too far down the road, yeah, I'd make a starter.
Yeast Washing Illustrated
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The first few weeks you'll easily have 2b cells/ML. After that you get closer to 1b/ML. Too far down the road, yeah, I'd make a starter.
You could always make a starter just to build up cell counts and then refrigerate it to buy yourself sometime. Should last a long time way.
There actually have been some experiments on this subject. Check out woodlandbrew's site:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/
I use 2b/ml up to a few weeks, then 1b for a few months, then down from there per mrmalty.com. Woodland found that yeast is still quite viable after a few weeks, whereas mrmalty had sharp decline in viability over the short term vs. what woodland was finding via cell counts.
I just did a starter on WLP400 that was harvested probably 8 months ago. I figured 10% viability and made a 2L starter. Oxygenated with O2 and pitched whole starter last night, which was just 24 hours on the stir-plate. I'll report how the fermentation goes.
What would be the suggested procedure to use only a portion (half?) of a washed container of yeast? The pic of my washed yeast is on page 197 of this thread. Its too much to pitch into a 5 gal batch, IMHO. Is there a way to use just half and preserve the remainder?
*Edit - I guess if I boiled and then cooled some water, I could add it to half empty yeast jar, therefore preserving remaining yeast.
*Edit - I guess if I boiled and then cooled some water, I could add it to half empty yeast jar, therefore preserving remaining yeast.
Malty_Dog said:
I'd assume doing that or using distilled water should be fine. Just my assumption though.
Wanted to report that my repitch of that ~8 month old WLP400 has.............well..............it took off in about 24 hours and had massive krausen by 36 hours. Of course I did pitch the whole 2L starter, but there was minimal lag and it seems my 10% viability calculation was possibly even modest.
brewski09
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Malty_Dog said:
Does anyone have any real data on if the jar needs to be full of boiled (deoxygenated) water? It would seem (though not the best practice for sure) that one could simply agitate the jar of yeast to mix it up, Star San the outside of it, pitch half of it, and reseal it all... I don't think this would really "hurt" the yeast.
Having water in place of beer (which has alcohol) is definitely better for viability and vitality, yes. In terms of pitching half, though, a sanitized scoop should do the job fine. The yeast warming up slightly will also off-gas, so leaving the lid just loose enough for this to happen should push out air.
Cover all the jars and let cool in the fridge for several hours, or maybe overnight.
Thanks for this post.
I am wondering if you make a starter using malt extract or you just let the jar sit at room temperature and pitch once it has reached room temperature?
By the way...how long do you keep them in the fridge?
With washed yeast I would say always make a starter. If nothing else to ensure viability and you're going to need some reproduction to meet pitching rates.
I have only washed yeast once, WY1214, and used after 2 months in the fridge. All went well with the fermentation. It was very active within 24 hours, I have to ferment at my in laws house so I can't keep a close eye on it, I'm sure it was active in much less than 24 hours.
I have only washed yeast once, WY1214, and used after 2 months in the fridge. All went well with the fermentation. It was very active within 24 hours, I have to ferment at my in laws house so I can't keep a close eye on it, I'm sure it was active in much less than 24 hours.
Bolus...have a look at this post I started. (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/yeast-starter-415355/)
I am wondering if you think this is a good idea.
Thanks for the reply.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I could not make it through 100 pages.
If I know I am going harvest yeast would it make sense to split the bag of yeast and grow it out before pitching? Or is it better to just harvest from primaary?
If I know I am going harvest yeast would it make sense to split the bag of yeast and grow it out before pitching? Or is it better to just harvest from primaary?
Brulosopher
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cooldood said:
Please read the link on "Yeast Harvesting: A Novel Approach?" in my signature.
Agree with Brulosopher. It just seems to make more sense. It's easier and it doesn't stress out the yeast as much so you aren't really adding to the generation count (debatable for sure).
I say just do that and wash your yeast. A vial could last you a year. As for the generations and mutating. I feel like the same thing could happen stepping up a starter or anytime your growing the cell count. No science to back that up though, just something I've thought about.
Thanks a ton
I had to turn on view sigs. to see it. I guess I will leave that option checked. LOL
How many generations are most guys getting? Is there some point where you get diminishing returns?
and thanks again.
Sorry one more question. If I am not going to use it for a couple of months how should I store it? I know you say put it in the fridge but is there a general rule if you are going say 6 months should I freeze it?
Brulosopher
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I just used a 7th generation WLP090 and it worked beautifully. I plan to take it out as far as it'll go.
I don't disagree with you, that's why I said it's debatable. I did ask the question - Is a step up starter considered a new yeast generation? You can read the answers and judge for yourself. I would love to see some actual data on it.
See link I posted above.
I've heard 6 months to a year is reasonable. Longer and the viability will be greatly reduced. What you can do is to make a small starter with your stored yeast ever few months to build back up the cell count and it will sort of reset the expiration date allowing you to keep them for quite awhile if you were so inclined. I plan to do that with some harvested Conan yeast I have since I don't know when I'll get some Heady Topper again.
el_caro
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Now we know Brulosopher stores yeast from starters made from newly purchased yeast. So when you talk of 7th generation WLP090 what do you actually classify as generations or is this a divergence from your normal practice?
Brulosopher
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el_caro said:
Huh? I bought a vial about 5 months ago, made a starter, harvested some yeast... repeat x 6 (vial was 1st gen + 6 harvests). This is my normal practice.
el_caro
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I must confess this confuses me a little and wonder if they are really generations if they have never been in hopped wort?
I mean there are multiple generations (buddings) in a single starter but we do not call each budding a generation?
I mean there are multiple generations (buddings) in a single starter but we do not call each budding a generation?
Confuses me too. I wonder if there really is no right answer. I think we all agree that the yeast harvested from a starter will be less stressed than washed yeast after fermenting a higher gravity beer, right? So maybe it's not a full generation. I'm going with the philosophy that as long as I'm not getting off flavors that I can attribute to the yeast that I've harvested multiple times from starters, I'm okay.
Yea its really left open to what your interpretation of generation is. I think most use it in a sense of 1 generation = 1 batch of beer.
The issue of generations is twofold. First, the probability of contamination increases with each passage and, if it has occurred, it is going to become more prevalent with each passage (this is probably the most critical issue for home brewers). Second, the probability of genetic change from the starting population increases with each passage and if a change occurs that gives a growth advantage it will be amplified with each passage. Both issues have to do with maintaining the strain in a state that reflects that of the starting population which was probably genetically identical and pure.
Notice I say passage. That is probably a more correct way of saying it than generation. A generation implies one round of division and, as someone has already pointed out, that occurs many times per brewing. A passage is one round of growth to full density.
Notice I say passage. That is probably a more correct way of saying it than generation. A generation implies one round of division and, as someone has already pointed out, that occurs many times per brewing. A passage is one round of growth to full density.
el_caro
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Thanks Brewitt
I guess to an amateur home-brewer like myself it is easier to work on avoiding or limiting contamination with each passage than it is to get my head around potential genetic change and what causes them.
My hope is that by being fanatical about handling during all aspects of yeast culturing and only storing yeast from initial starters that I will get many brews from one package of yeast.
Thanks to Brulosopher for his excellent direction in harvesting from initial starters instead of yeast cakes in primaries.
I don't mean that you shouldn't harvest yeast. I just think you need to be careful and to limit the number of passages you put the yeast through. There are various guidelines but I think that if you don't Go beyond the recommendations that you are probably alright. Just keep in mind that the more you manipulate the population the more possibility of both contamination and changes in the population you are risking.
All of that said, I think the idea of just growing up a large population out of the original culture give you the best possibility of keeping a clean culture.
All of that said, I think the idea of just growing up a large population out of the original culture give you the best possibility of keeping a clean culture.
Brulosopher
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el_caro said:
I haven't personally as I've never used 2 different yeasts together, but I don't see why you couldn't. Of course you'd have a combination of both in the washed yeast.
sok454 said:
I guess a question that should be asked is why you used the two yeasts? Did one not take off? If for example you pitched Notty and nothing happened so you pitched US05 then I imagine the strain that will go to work next time you use it would be US05.
BGBC
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sok454 said:
You may not want to wash yeast from a RIS anyway. I generally wash yeast from my lower grav beers only.
Good point BGBC.
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