Smoked Porter = "no smoke aroma or flavor" at competition

I'm thoroughly confused at how smoky typical BJCP judges expect a smoked Porter to be. I've had Alaskan and Stone many times of various vintages and I can honestly say that mine is comparable. The first attempt used 3lbs of Weyermann Rauch just like Jamil has in BCS. I felt it was a little light on the smoke. The judges agreed too.

This time I was sure to use more Rauch, 5 lbs in 6 gallons, and even made sure I used a more reliable HBS with a quicker turnover hoping it was a freshness thing. Ah, success. It's just like I hoped.

Judges: If it wasn't labeled "smoked", I wouldn't have even perceived any smoke aroma or flavor. It's a decent Robust Porter and would have judged better in the non-smoked category.

Seriously, do they want a 1/2 pound of peat smoked in there?

6.5 lb Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
5.0 lb Smoked Malt
1 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 40L
1 lb Caramel Malt 80L
1 lb Bonlander Munich Malt
.75 lb American Chocolate Malt
.5 lb American Black Patent
1 oz East Kent Goldings (6.2%) - added during boil, boiled 50.0 min
.5 oz East Kent Goldings (6.2%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
.5 oz East Kent Goldings (6.2%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1 oz East Kent Goldings (6.2%) - steeped after boil
0.0 ea White Labs WLP005 British Ale

One thing that JZ has mentioned is how smoked beers are hard on the judges' pallate after they've been drinking them for a while. Maybe yours happened to be one of the last ones in the flight?

Bobby_M said:

Judges: If it wasn't labeled "smoked", I wouldn't have even perceived any smoke aroma or flavor.

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If they truly are qualified judges, shouldn't they be able to tell what style it was, even without being labeled? Why should the word "smoked" allow them to pick up the smoke taste on their palate? That doesn't make any sense.

The smoked category is going to have palate fatigue issues like the IPA category.

Given that Robust Porter is the base beer, you probably went close to last in the flight.

This is unfortunately one of those situations where the best beer to a fresh palate may not be the best beer strategically to enter in a competition.

annasdadhockey said:

If they truly are qualified judges, shouldn't they be able to tell what style it was, even without being labeled? Why should the word "smoked" allow them to pick up the smoke taste on their palate? That doesn't make any sense.

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No, you are always more likely to find something if you are looking for it.

I think it is completely reasonable to say "since you told me it was smoked, yeah I can taste a little bit of smoke but it is really barely perceptible".

You are expecting perfection in beer evaluation by judges, which is unrealistic.

Maybe I just don't care that much for smoke, but I've only made one, using 2 lbs 10 oz in a 5-gallon batch (it's what I had on hand). I mashed with a couple other grains (don't remember which), and it's actually a little too smokey, I think. So how on Earth could 5 lbs be barely detectable?

Teacher said:

Maybe I just don't care that much for smoke, but I've only made one, using 2 lbs 10 oz in a 5-gallon batch (it's what I had on hand). I mashed with a couple other grains (don't remember which), and it's actually a little too smokey, I think. So how on Earth could 5 lbs be barely detectable?

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If you used 2 lbs 10 oz in a robust porter and found it too much then, yes, smoked beers are not for you.

If you used that amount in a lighter tasting beer than you are comparing apples to oranges.

I put 3# weyermann in a 5g lager. It was delicious, and the smoke is prominent but not enought for me. My next will probably be 100% smoked (1/2 beechwood, 1/2 cherrywood-breiss). I do like the smoke.

To me, the smoke character in Stone Smoked Porter is very subtle, and the way it should be. Overly smokey beers are tough to drink IMHO.

F'n judges. My porter was recently judged and comments as having way too much caramel character( 1lb C40) and too much diacetyl slickness/fullness from one judge and not enough caramel/sweetness, too dry and light bodied from the other sheet in the same competition.

I guess you have to deal with the occasional when entering comps

This has got to be a problem for judges. My wife recently took a sip of my Rogue Imperial Porter and when she went back to her hefe = nothin'.

How long to clear / cleanse the palate?

I was worried about my 999 barleywine in the HBT comp because I entered it into the barleywine category instead of the smoked category even though it had decent smoked flavor from 3 lbs. rauchmalt. Well, no notes at all about the smoke on the scoresheets and it ended up winning 2nd place.

At least he thought it was a decent Robust Porter.

After what I posted here earlier this year'

Revvy said:

Yeah but, if you are judging a style like 21A. Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer then shouldn't you at least appreciate the style???

I got an honorable mention at the Michigan Renn Fest, Brew Barons Beer Brawl, for my Chocolate Mole Porter (or as entered it in the contest as "Chocolate Chile Porter") I just got the sheets back last week.

And this was one of the final comments on the judging sheet.

"I don't know understand what prompts folks to put strange ingredients in otherwise good beer. Too Strange in weird spiciness for me, but ...I'm too traditional. Drinkable if you like peppery beer."

Then why the heck are they judging the category of beer called "Spiced, herb and vegetable beer, if that's their attitude? I also wonder if he wrote it on all the entrants sheets.

I wonder if the beer would have even ranked higher had he been more "open" to the style. Honestly I wouldn't judge a style I wasn't a fan of, like wheats for instance. I don't get any pleasure from them, so how can I not be biased as a judge?

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I tend to take what judges say with a grain of salt. I've come to realize, just like anywhere else, some judges are better than others, and it's a crapshoot as to the type of judge you may get judging a particular beer, or style.

Two different judges on a different day, or even in a different contest, may think it was a perfect representation of style.

remilard said:

If you used 2 lbs 10 oz in a robust porter and found it too much then, yes, smoked beers are not for you.

If you used that amount in a lighter tasting beer than you are comparing apples to oranges.

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It wasn't a robust porter; it would be more withing the guidelines of a brown porter. I actually think I'd like it if I pulled the smoked malt (Wyerman's, I think - NOT the peated stuff) back to about 1.75-2 pounds. I just find it a bit too dominating as it is.

I pulled a 2oz taster this morning before going to work (yeah, that's how I roll) and seriously, if I posted a picture of it here everyone would taste and smell the smoke through the interwebz.

Oh, and totally off topic. I did take a 1st place for Oktoberfest at the same comp and I just got a bunch of 2oz NZ Hallertau hop pouches as a prize. Get this, all three of them had their labels fall off in the bag. The alpha acids of each, 4.5%, 8%, 11%. Hmm, useless now.

Bobby_M said:

I pulled a 2oz taster this morning before going to work (yeah, that's how I roll) and seriously, if I posted a picture of it here everyone would taste and smell the smoke through the interwebz.

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If that actually worked I'd be fired a long time ago.

Maybe they served the bottle too cold? A judge should be pouring a small sample and letting it warm though. Its strange that you are getting great smokiness, and the judges could barely pick up on it.

well bobby, i'm sure there is SOMETHINg you could do with them. dry hop maybe? or you could hop your starter lol. how about selling them on ebay, even if you don't have the alpha's i'm sure someone who doesn't want them for brewing would still buy them, just to have em.

okay, how about this- bring an opened tea strainer with you next time to the bars, get yourself some of that "triple hops brewed" garbage and make it slightly hoppier (and make your friends try it)

k, out of ideas for now...

A lot has to do where you are in the flight and the judges skill. I am taken BJCP classes now with Fred Bounjor and juding beer is a lot harder than it looks. You can get crappy judges as I have judge with one at the Renn fest. I have had a gold medal winner and with the same beer different comp get an HM.

I'd chalk it up to palate fatigue. 5 lbs of rauch in 6 gallons should be noticeable to anyone, judge or otherwise. I put 5 lbs in 12 gallons and it's fairly subtle, but definitely noticeable...for a minute. After one pint I can't detect unless a really concentrate on it.

To me, this is one of those situations where you just leave it alone. You brewed a beer that you like, drink it. Enter it in comps until you get good feedback, or you get sick of hearing the same thing over and over. If you're brewing for medals, then I guess you can keep upping the rauch malt until judges start giving you better scores, but is it really worth it?

Yes, I'm sure it is a matter of palate fatigue. Smoked beers are the WORST for that, and I constantly recommend that smoked beer flights should be no larger than four. Any more than that, and it is not fair to the entrants.

I recall judging a flight of six or seven smoked beers. On the last one, neither I nor my judging partner could pick up the slightest hint of smoke. The rest of the beer came through very well. I handed the beer to another guy, a very good judge who was passing by the table, and asked his opinion. His head nearly spun around on his neck, and he said it was like bacon grease, there was so much smoke. We still couldn't pick it up. I had to take it to the coordinator and tell him we were no longer qualified to finish that flight.

Now that I think about it, it seems that the wood-aged beers always seem to take the medals in the Smoked/Wood-aged category. Palate fatigue with the smoke may be a major reason.

I'd also leave it alone, Bobby. If you really want that medal, you can roll the dice again and hope you are early in the flight. Bumping up the rauchmalt does you no good, because you have just as much chance of coming early in the flight, and then you'll be too smoky. Frankly, I recommend just enjoying the great beer you made.


TL

You could also brew 6 or 7 smoked porters all with different amounts of rauch and enter them all.

Bobby, I entered the same competition as you - I saw you got 1st place in Oktoberfest (2nd for Best in Show as well - congrats). I received horrible scores from the two judges: 20 & 22. The interesting part is that I had entered the exact same beer from the same batch into another comp that took place on the same day. The scores I got from the three judges there was 36, 39, and 43. In that comp I was 2nd in flight order out of 14. In your comp they didn't tell me where I was.

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