Twenty Minute Flameout

What would happen if I started building my IPA and APA recipes around a 60 minute boil and then a 20 minute steep after boil between 165 and 190 degrees? Of course, after this period i would cool the wort quickly as normal to prevent infection.

I would still get a full 60 minute boil to give a good hot break and remove dms and other undesirables. I would still be adding all of my flavor and aroma additons to wort that was sterile because it would be over 160 degrees.

Perhaps I would get a little extra flavor from the hops because the higher heat makes more of the volatile oils break down?

Anybody else think this might be a good idea for an IPA?

I think thats the way flameout additions are supposed to be done. thats pretty much how i do them. I kill the heat then let it steep for 10+ minutes before i chill. i think its great for ipas. give it a try and see if you like it

It's a fantastic idea for an ipa or any other hoppy beer. Check out cybi Firestone walker union jack ipa podcast and the recipe- they go into great detail about a 30 minute whirpool/hop steep etc. Stone apparently only hops once in the kettle for bittering and then massively charges the whirpool with flameout hops for flavor and aroma.

I've been doing it in all my hoppy ales. I move any and all additions from 10 min to 1 min to straight up whirpool hops. Here's how I do it.

Flameout-->begin stirring of wort to whirpool and to slightly cool from rolling boil to just hot wort, maybe +- 1 min. total-->toss in flameout addition, cover kettle and let stand for 20 before turning on chiller.

Ive been getting great results with this method and it's repeatable. Also, I tend to think knocking the boil out of the wort is important. You want a hot steep, but not a boil that might drive off of more volatiles..... At least that's what I think. Try it out for sure.

I did a black ipa that had 2 oz centennial at knockout. I believe I steeped for an hour. When I bottled it, the aroma pretty much filled my basement.

I'll usually steep for a half hour to an hour, then start chilling.

I whirlpool after flame out for 20 minutes on all my beers before I start chilling. Flame out additions are more noticeable and actually mean something now.

jester5120 said:

I think thats the way flameout additions are supposed to be done. thats pretty much how i do them. I kill the heat then let it steep for 10+ minutes before i chill. i think its great for ipas. give it a try and see if you like it

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Yeah it seemed clear to me, but I have always had people tell me that they cool the wort immediately after boil. Now I am thinking cool the wort immediately if it gets below appx 160 where it is no longer able to kill pathogens.

Will this change my perception of bitterness in my beer?

duckmanco said:

Stone apparently only hops once in the kettle for bittering and then massively charges the whirpool with flameout hops for flavor and aroma.

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Shout out! Stone Rocks!

This is common in the UK brewing industry, they call it a hop stand.

HopLife said:

Yeah it seemed clear to me, but I have always had people tell me that they cool the wort immediately after boil. Now I am thinking cool the wort immediately if it gets below appx 160 where it is no longer able to kill pathogens.

Will this change my perception of bitterness in my beer?

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the aroma and flavor from flameout and dry hopping increase your perceived bitterness but don't actually increase bitterness. if that makes sense.

Yes, it does make sense. I tend to use low cohumulone hops at flame out for that reason. I do flame out hops and let it sit for 20 minutes then chill. Works well for more flavor/aroma. Just keep the lid tightly on the top of the kettle to keep oils from escaping with the steam too much.

How would you compensate/figure IBU for this style of steep. I do this always on my hop styles, but have trouble figuring the IBU. I know I'm getting added bitterness with this addition because all my score sheets are getting deductions from being too hoppy for the style.

Too hoppy can also mean too much hop aroma or flavor. I've read over and over there's no bitterness or IBU's added by flame out additions, but I would think you'd get some level of IBU gain from a flame out addition considering the temperature.

ILBMF said:

I've read over and over there's no bitterness or IBU's added by flame out additions, but I would think you'd get some level of IBU gain from a flame out addition considering the temperature.

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That's right. According to JZ and Palmer, 175* is about the minimum for isomerization of alpha acids. So basically from flame out to 175* you're going to get additional IBUs from any late additions / whirlpool additions. Unfortunately, the various calculations that estimate IBUs (ie. Rager and Tinsenth) are all flawed in some way or another and don't take this into account very well so your software might not assign any IBUs, but you'll get them.

I have been doing tons of post boil additions lately. My last two beers used 6 ounces of hops after flameout.

I throw a couple ounces in right at flameout, mostly to get a little bitterness and flavor. Then throw in a couple more ounces at like 170*, these are just hot enough to extract the desired compounds without evaporating away. Finally I threw in a couple ounces at around 120* to simulate an accelerated dry hop.

I then dry hopped 2 ounces primary and will rack onto 2 more ounces in the keg.

tesilential said:

I have been doing tons of post boil additions lately. My last two beers used 6 ounces of hops after flameout.

I throw a couple ounces in right at flameout, mostly to get a little bitterness and flavor. Then throw in a couple more ounces at like 170*, these are just hot enough to extract the desired compounds without evaporating away. Finally I threw in a couple ounces at around 120* to simulate an accelerated dry hop.

I then dry hopped 2 ounces primary and will rack onto 2 more ounces in the keg.

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Wow, point taken. How were these beers. Are you describing a 5 gallon batch, or bigger. At 5 gallons that would be a ton of hops.

HopLife said:

Wow, point taken. How were these beers. Are you describing a 5 gallon batch, or bigger. At 5 gallons that would be a ton of hops.

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6 gal batches, 5.5 in bucket.

They also had a couple ounces of first wort hops for bittering . Keep in mind, aside from the FWH addition none of the hops were boiled at all.

mmonacel said:

That's right. According to JZ and Palmer, 175* is about the minimum for isomerization of alpha acids. So basically from flame out to 175* you're going to get additional IBUs from any late additions / whirlpool additions. Unfortunately, the various calculations that estimate IBUs (ie. Rager and Tinsenth) are all flawed in some way or another and don't take this into account very well so your software might not assign any IBUs, but you'll get them.

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This is largely true, but one also needs to keep in mind that the rate of isomerization falls RAPIDLY, and that what happens in 5 minutes at 210° will likely take more than an hour at 180°. This is why people are able to no-chill without just ending up with all bitterness and absolutely no flavor or aroma.

tesilential said:

I have been doing tons of post boil additions lately. My last two beers used 6 ounces of hops after flameout.

I throw a couple ounces in right at flameout, mostly to get a little bitterness and flavor. Then throw in a couple more ounces at like 170*, these are just hot enough to extract the desired compounds without evaporating away. Finally I threw in a couple ounces at around 120* to simulate an accelerated dry hop.

I then dry hopped 2 ounces primary and will rack onto 2 more ounces in the keg.

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I want to taste that...

Has anyone experienced problems with DMS while not cooling quickly? Also, I read that it is better to leave the kettle un-covered during cooling. Although some hop aroma compounds will leave the beer, but also DMS precursors are leaving when left uncovered??

tesilential said:

I have been doing tons of post boil additions lately. My last two beers used 6 ounces of hops after flameout.

I throw a couple ounces in right at flameout, mostly to get a little bitterness and flavor. Then throw in a couple more ounces at like 170*, these are just hot enough to extract the desired compounds without evaporating away. Finally I threw in a couple ounces at around 120* to simulate an accelerated dry hop.

I then dry hopped 2 ounces primary and will rack onto 2 more ounces in the keg.

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I like the way that sounds. I drop a lot of hops in at flameout on IPA's and now I'm going to try something like what you are doing. I have a sickness for endless hop flavor/aroma. I can't ever seem to get enough. There's nothing like a great batch of nugget nectar which is similar to what I always aim for.

I've been thinking of pumping chilled wort back into my kettle to whirlpool until the kettle temperature reaches 175*F, THEN adding my flameout hops. I'd imagine the very hot wort world effectively extract hop flavor and aroma, but by knocking the temperature down some 30+ degrees below boiling I'd preserve some delicious volitiles. Anyone doing this?

bigbeergeek said:

I've been thinking of pumping chilled wort back into my kettle to whirlpool until the kettle temperature reaches 175*F, THEN adding my flameout hops. I'd imagine the very hot wort world effectively extract hop flavor and aroma, but by knocking the temperature down some 30+ degrees below boiling I'd preserve some delicious volitiles. Anyone doing this?

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Yep, I've done it with my plate chiller. Or rather, something pretty similar. I recirculate while chilling until it gets down to about 180. Then I connect my Hop Rocket (hopback) inline, and recirculate with chiller's water flow turned off for about 15 minutes, before directing flow to the fermentor and resuming chilling (with Hop Rocket still connected).

But I find it easier, and the results better, if I just have the Hop Rocket connected the whole time and recirculate with the chiller operating at a slow rate until I hit the target temp. Or just using the hopback normally even. In fact, the results you're looking to get are make hopbacks so awesome!

What's the best way to hopback with pellets? I pretty much figure flameout hop additions are the same.

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RESULTS: I do this extended flameout whirlpool on any beer that I want the hops to shine on. I do estimate that I am finding a little extra bitterness, but I have been scaling back my bittering additions to compensate. I have found that for a good Pale ale I get best results with a 60, under 10, and whirlpool addition. Then if I want that fresh hop taste I throw whole hops in a new grain bag direct into the keg. Sometimes I dry hop, but really only on an IPA, Otherwise this is fully sufficient for my tastes.

I would follow the HWC method....Hot kettle hop, Warm hop steep, Cold dryhop.

Aromatic hop oils are very sensitive and offer a variety of flavor/aroma traits depending on when they are added to the wort. With the above referenced method, you get the best the hops have to offer at different phases.

Hot Boil-Kettle Hops - approx. 90-60 min. boil @ 212-200 F (most bitterness offered, some aroma)
Warm Post-Boil Steep - approx. 30-20 min. @ 160-100 F (no bitterness, good aromatic compounds form, which are not offered by boil or dryhop)
Cold Dryhop - approx. 10-7 days @ 68-62 F (no bitterness, ultimate aroma, but quite different from that of the warm steep)

FYI - I notice best results with pellet hops...especially for the last two stages. They dissolve quicker and offer more potent aroma in a shorter time frame.

bobbrews said:

I would follow the HWC method....Hot kettle hop, Warm hop steep, Cold dryhop.

Aromatic hop oils are very sensitive and offer a variety of flavor/aroma traits depending on when they are added to the wort. With the above referenced method, you get the best the hops have to offer at different phases.

Hot Boil-Kettle Hops - approx. 90-60 min. boil @ 212-200 F (most bitterness offered, some aroma)
Warm Post-Boil Steep - approx. 30-20 min. @ 160-100 F (no bitterness, good aromatic compounds form, which are not offered by boil or dryhop)
Cold Dryhop - approx. 10-7 days @ 68-62 F (no bitterness, ultimate aroma, but quite different from that of the warm steep)

FYI - I notice best results with pellet hops...especially for the last two stages. They dissolve quicker and offer more potent aroma in a shorter time frame.

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For the record I agree. I am minimizing late boil additions in favor of flameout additons... I wait for the kettle to cool pretty dramatically, but not as much as mentioned above because I intend to have a very quick cooling time between 160 and 65 because this is the range that is susceptible to infection.

One might gain more flavor by adding additions cooler but I have been conservative regarding standing wort under 160...perhaps I am too worried.

Certainly, I prefer my flameout to be under 180- to eliminate some of the volatile properties associated with high heat.

What is your process to introduce hop aroma at 100-160 with no risk of infection?

I am using a counter-flow chill but also have access to an immersion chiller.

HopLife said:

...I intend to have a very quick cooling time between 160 and 65 because this is the range that is susceptible to infection.

One might gain more flavor by adding additions cooler but I have been conservative regarding standing wort under 160...perhaps I am too worried.

Certainly, I prefer my flameout to be under 180- to eliminate some of the volatile properties associated with high heat.

What is your process to introduce hop aroma at 100-160 with no risk of infection?

I am using a counter-flow chill but also have access to an immersion chiller.

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I don't like the warm aroma steep at very hot temps, since I want to keep more of those delicate compounds that may be driven off by too hot a temp. I think I read somewhere that much of the Myrcene within the hops is driven off around 167 F. And the coincidence is that all of my favorite hops are very high in Myrcene.

I add my coil wort-chiller with the lid on the kettle until the temp. of wort reaches approx. 160-165 F. At that point, I remove the wort chiller and then slow chill the rest of the way down to 60 F-ish using an ice-bath, which takes me about 20-30 minutes. The kettle lid is still on during this process.

So it all works out in the end for my system. You won't get an infection from the warm steep as long as you don't dip your fingers in or drool over your wort. I'm very careful when it comes to sanitation being a professional chef with a ServSafe certificate. I brew indoors the majority of the time too, so I usually don't have to worry about dirt, wind, other particulates which can cause infection.

I actually never had an infection due to improper sanitation practices. And when it comes to chilling the wort as quickly as possible to pitching temps in order to promote clarity, my IPAs are always crystal clear despite slow chilling, using an inordinate amount of oily hops, neglecting to cold crash or using refiners like gelatin.

Just a comment on sanitation:

I've been following bob's method above (chill quickly to 160ish, add hops, slow chill for 30mins or so) exclusively for hoppy beers.

I brew outdoors, often in the wind, only partially covering the wort...and have never had any infection problems. The hops certainly help protect, and I promptly pitch ample quantities of healthy, active yeast. So I wouldn't worry about it.

Ummm...you guys seem pretty experienced in these hoppy type techniques, ever try mash hops?

I guess I might just search it.