Multiple questions about secondary fermentation

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thebamaking

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So what exactly does secondary fermentation do for a beer?

Are there certain styles it helps and certain styles it doesnt affect?

Is secondary fermentation required when dry hopping?
 
So what exactly does secondary fermentation do for a beer?

Are there certain styles it helps and certain styles it doesnt affect?

Is secondary fermentation required when dry hopping?

This isn't a complete answer, as I am not experienced enough to answer the question in full, but in short a secondary helps to clear, age after pulling off the cake, and gives the opportunity to add additions such as hops, fruit, etc. A perfect example of a style it would help would be a very strong Belgian where you have many flavors going on and it needs to age to mellow out. You would not want to secondary a beer that is supposed to be drank young or cloudy; the perfect example being a hefeweizen (German wheat beer served with the yeast in the drink).

I can't tell you if you absolutely must secondary to dry hop, but it is standard practice.
 
You just about narrowed it down Bill.

In actuality there is no secondary fermentation taking place. All fermentation should have been completed prior to racking to a secondary.

It is more correctly called a "clearing tank". It's where you store your beer while more yeast is falling out of suspension.

As previously stated, this is where you would want to make any additions and/or add flavorings/fruit or dry hop.

It also gives the brew time to mellow and age some.

Personally, I do secondary my Hefe Weizens to allow more of the yeast to fall out which results IMO in a cleaner tasting HW, but I am in the minority here with that practice. ;)
 
I use a bright tank (the "secondary") for lagers, beers that I'm oaking or adding fruit to, or in some cases for dryhopping.

I do use a true secondary with all of my wines.
 
On dryhopping - a secondary may not be necessary when dryhopping, but you certainly want to wait until fermentation is complete before adding the hops in. Otherwise, the CO2 will push out much of the hop aroma gained from dryhopping.
 
It's actually really really complex, and ultimately comes down to a matter of what you believe.

There are two philosophies on that subject, and I am going to give you both sides of the argument to help you understand how complex it really is. There are even too different articles on here one by me and one by Boerderij, and we usually end up posting one after the other. But I thought I'd save us both the hassle and condense them to this single post.

And both takes have sources that we draw from to back up our arguments.

Revvy's take on where "Secondary Fermentation" happens.

Here is my friend Boerderij_Kabouter (or Donkey sniffer's) counter discourse.

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerderij_Kabouter/Secondary_fermentation_and_why_it_makes_me_crazy/

Donkey sniffer and I have the highest regards for each other (so much that he lets me call him donkey sniffer since I still can't spell his name ), and both acknowledge that there are more than one way to skin a cat...And actually there's a point where both our takes intersect each other.

But he cites New lager brewing by Noonan, and that is where his view comes from. I think that even though it was revised waaay back in 2003 that it still was written originally much earlier, and STILL represents a time when yeast contact was feared (back in the days when people still believed, perhaps rightly so, in the dreaded autolysis which many of us believe is no longer an issue for homebrewers.) So since it came from a time where yeast contact was not encouraged, and that perhaps it skews towards that idea too heavily.

Texlaw put it into perspective nicely;

...racking during active fermentation is something we did back in the days when homebrewers' yeast was of questionable quality. That just isn't the case, anymore. For that reason, many homebrewers do not even employ a secondary (at least, that is the current trend).

TL

This is an ever evolving hobby, and information and ideas change. And now with places like this with a huuge amount of dedicated and serious brewers, as well as all the podcasts online, you will find the most state of the art brewing info.

There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

BUT I believe though that Ales and Lager have different requirements and needs. and that Lagers should be treated waaay differently then Ales.....Lagers by nature need to be cleaner, any off flavor is way more evident. In fact most of the "bogeymen" of homebrewers is mis reading things like Palmer's writing about Lagers (like autolysis) and assuming he's talking about ALL beers....

Lagers and Ales are really different animals.. Lagers require much specific techniques....like temp control, d-rests if necessary, etc....And have less margin for error.

If you are lagering you want minimal yeast contact....you want to be within the ball park of completeness of fermentation (whether it's 2/3rds or 100%- depending on whose interpretation) and then you want to get it off the yeast cake ASAP and into the cold for a few months.....That's the point of lagers...they are meant to be stored and conditioned for awhile...so you want to minimize the potential for any off flavors from yeast contact.

In terms of lagers I agree with him about the reduction of yeast contact, though I stil disagree as to when you move it. I STILL believe like HB_99 said, that you wait til fermentation is complete.

But for ALES many of us no longer even use a secondary, unless we are dry hopping, or adding fruit or oak, or trying to get our beer way from any fruit we may have added in the boil like pumpkin. Instead we opt for a long primary, which renders this argument about secondaries moot anyway.

There's been a shift in the last few years away from fearing the yeast to believing that prolonged yeast contact in primary is good for the beer. It results in clearer and cleaner tasting beer, because the yeast have the opportunity to clean up after themselves. I believe that even John Palmer suggest this in How to Brew.

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

And even Donkey sniffer has suggested that the new brewer try both methods and see what works for them.

It really ultimately comes down to what works for you......Try different ways of doing ANYTHING in this hobby and develop your own brewing process....

As you can see it is a difficult issure to answer simply. ANd many people even swear blood oaths against people who believe differently one way or the other. But I think that Boerderij_Kabouter have kind of been able to get away from the "arguments" and the -vs- mentality and present the different takes on this reasonably. And also show where they intersect.

But this is the important takeaway message...

The good news is that whatever method you choose, you will STILL make great beer. That's the amazing thing about this hobby. There is really no RIGHT way of doing things. There are literally dozens of ways to skin the cat here, and all that matter is integrating whatever methodolgy works best for you into YOUR OWN UNIQUE brewing process.

Hope this helps.

:mug:
 
Man you have got to love Revvy's dissertations.
Personally I secondary only because I crash chill my beer, and my large carboy can not fit in my keggerator. I also want to start another beer as quickly as possible.
When I rack to secondary, I do it a little sloppy and pull in a enough yeast to continue to work at room temperature for the second week, and the third or fourth week is spent in the keggerator.
If I'm not starting another beer, I leave it in the primary and crash chill in my fermenter fridge.
In short, I do what works for me.
 
I do a long primary (3+ weeks), but still secondary all my beers for one very important reason: I'm a klutz with my siphon and usually suck up a little bit of the yeast cake.

Giving the beer a week in secondary lets that little bit of trub settle back out before I bottle. :D
 
I just started a Canadian Ale, and for the first time Im going to just leave it in the primary for about 4 weeks. haha im terrified!! before now I havent left anything in the fermenter for over a week.
 
You just about narrowed it down Bill.


As previously stated, this is where you would want to make any additions and/or add flavorings/fruit or dry hop.

I've seen multiple references in various threads to adding fruit, chocolate, etc. to the beer in the secondary vessel or even right before bottling. How does that square with the danger of aerating the beer? Do you just need to do very slow, deliberate mix? No mix? Or is a vigorous mix ok at that point? I'm still doing more basic brews, but I can't wait to start on some more involved ones.
 
I've seen multiple references in various threads to adding fruit, chocolate, etc. to the beer in the secondary vessel or even right before bottling. How does that square with the danger of aerating the beer? Do you just need to do very slow, deliberate mix? No mix? Or is a vigorous mix ok at that point? I'm still doing more basic brews, but I can't wait to start on some more involved ones.

There's no actual mixing involved. You place your addition into the vessel, then rack the beer on top of that.
 
There's no actual mixing involved. You place your addition into the vessel, then rack the beer on top of that.

Or you add the ingredient to the secondary after the beer. The yeast is remarkably able to eat any kind of sugar regardless of whether it is on the top or bottom of the vessel, and gravity has a marvelous way of helping beer clear by taking stuff down to the trub. And anything still floating will float down to the bottom of the vessel as you rack to your bottling bucket or tertiery.

This beer stuff has a really magical way of integrating without having to shake, stir or do anything else to it. We really don't need to fuss with it as much as people think. We just kinda need to trust it a bit more. :D
 
when using a secondary is it normal to have less yeast sediment in the bottles? there is still yeast present correct?
 
when using a secondary is it normal to have less yeast sediment in the bottles? there is still yeast present correct?

You always will have some sediment in a bottle, you need to have sediment in order to have your beer carbed if it is bottle conditioned.

I primary for a month and I end up usually with very little sediment in my bottles. Since most of the "trub" from fermentation is compacted and left behind...but that's the same if you secondary as well.

But still you will always have a small amount of yeast in your beer bottles, that's what makes it awesome about having "Living Beers" instead of dead and relatively tasteless macroswill.

Sediment in bottles is a good think, it's also present in many many fantastic commercial beers, and we often harvest the yeast from it.

In fact the Belgian's practically worship it.

If you are interested in reading more about it, you can read this post of mine from awhile back, when someone else asked the question.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/anyone-using-filter-bottling-123758/#post1379528

There's even a video on how to pour bottle conditioned beers leaving the sediment behind.
 
I understand why some brewers use a secondary, but I'm dead against suggesting a new brewer to use one. I just think that a new brewer fumbling around with a siphon while transferring the beer to another vessel when it's absolutely unnecessary is going to do more harm than good. IMO ;)

I've taken flak from people on this board, but I really can't think of a single reason to secondary other than maybe some Flanders Red or PLambic sorta styles that need a second pitch of bugs and a year to develop. You can, with careful racking practice, accomplish anything in brewing you want to without using a secondary vessel, including dry-hopping, fruit additions, lagering, etc....
 
Solid. This was my first time using a secondary. My beers, when strictly using a primary, have a visible amount of white yeast sediment in the bottles. These IPAs I bottled yesterday don't have any yet. How long till I may see some?
 
I understand why some brewers use a secondary, but I'm dead against suggesting a new brewer to use one. I just think that a new brewer fumbling around with a siphon while transferring the beer to another vessel when it's absolutely unnecessary is going to do more harm than good. IMO ;)

I've taken flak from people on this board, but I really can't think of a single reason to secondary other than maybe some Flanders Red or PLambic sorta styles that need a second pitch of bugs and a year to develop. You can, with careful racking practice, accomplish anything in brewing you want to without using a secondary vessel, including dry-hopping, fruit additions, lagering, etc....

I pretty much agree with you...I dry hop in my month primaries. But I still use a secondary if I am adding oak or fruit (so ai can rack on top of that stuff) or if I did a pumpkin beer where I had a huge trub in the primary...or to lager after the month in primary.

But except for that it's a month in, and I have found that my beer has improved....and even my contest scores.
 
Solid. This was my first time using a secondary. My beers, when strictly using a primary, have a visible amount of white yeast sediment in the bottles. These IPAs I bottled yesterday don't have any yet. How long till I may see some?

Generally most of the yeast is going to stay in suspension until it has fermented out the priming sugar. That being said, I have had a couple beers that took awhile to carb up and they had a pretty good amount of sediment and were still flat. I usually wait until they're real clear to even test a bottle for carbonation.
 
Solid. This was my first time using a secondary. My beers, when strictly using a primary, have a visible amount of white yeast sediment in the bottles. These IPAs I bottled yesterday don't have any yet. How long till I may see some?

Every beer is different. And it doesn't matter. Just walk away from your beers for a minimum of 3 weeks if your beer is at 70 degrees or above.
 
I pretty much agree with you...I dry hop in my month primaries. But I still use a secondary if I am adding oak or fruit (so ai can rack on top of that stuff) or if I did a pumpkin beer where I had a huge trub in the primary...or to lager after the month in primary.

But except for that it's a month in, and I have found that my beer has improved....and even my contest scores.

Yep. I've pushed it too. I bottled an Amber after 10 days this summer. I could just tell it was done. It hit terminal gravity, the hydro sample tasted amazing, why leave it longer? It won a gold and scored a 42 at a comp and two of the judges (the BJCP ranked ones) commented on how well it was fermented, no hints of diacetyl, DMS, acetaldeyde, all of the usual "the reason you need to do a secondary" boogiemen.

I agree with you though, the three week minimum in primary is the best advice floating around on this board. You can't go wrong with that.
 
For those who advocate the primary only approach:

When using a secondary for adding fruit, for instance, do you still let it sit in the primary for 3-4 weeks or do you rack a bit earlier as Boerderij_Kabouter suggests (before the beer is fully attenuated)?

I know fruit can restart active fermentation due to the addition of sugars, which is the only reason I ask.
 
For those who advocate the primary only approach:

When using a secondary for adding fruit, for instance, do you still let it sit in the primary for 3-4 weeks or do you rack a bit earlier as Boerderij_Kabouter suggests (before the beer is fully attenuated)?

I know fruit can restart active fermentation due to the addition of sugars, which is the only reason I ask.

Was going to ask this myself.

About to brew a batch I plan add Blueberries to and I was considering doing the whole no-secondary thing (which scares me for no other reason as I haven't done it before)

I'd be totally ok with leaving it be for 3 weeks then racking to the blueberry secondary for a week or so...which I might do anyway.
But I wanted to see how the no2 crowd handles it




EDIT: Actually as I think about it, when I do the secondary method like BK suggest (my current method) I've never really gotten any of the flavors I wanted from the extracts and had to add more later in the keg. Wonder if the fermenting/conditioning of the still pretty active yeast mellowed out the flavors. Might have to split my batch and compare...
 
This thread has really opened my eyes. I have a few questions.

I am a super noob at this. I brewed a Belgian IPA kit with a buddy (who has brewed ~40 batches of beer). The kit instructions say:

- 5 to 7 days fermentation
- transfer to secondary (no time listed for secondary, but I would assume 1 week)

This is how my friend does his beers, in general, as well. However, this thread has made me a bit nervous on two things: The amount of time spent in the primary fermentation bucket will be too short and that it is unnecessary to put it into the secondary.

Since this is my first batch, should I just follow the instructions? Or should I leave it in the primary fermentation bucket longer to make sure? I would prefer to get at least a little bit of the yeast and/or hop residue in the bottles. Not a lot, but a little.

Thanks in advance.
 
Since this is my first batch, should I just follow the instructions? Or should I leave it in the primary fermentation bucket longer to make sure? I would prefer to get at least a little bit of the yeast and/or hop residue in the bottles. Not a lot, but a little.

Thanks in advance.

Well I think you find the stance of folks one here is that those instructions are full of crap and should be used to wipe up any spilled wort. Not to make great beer with.

This topic has been done to death so you really don't need to look far to see the stories, the anecdotes and the citations that those of us who believe in waiting use to justify it. I've been doing a long primary/no secondary for 3 years, and my beers are vastly improved by it.

Generally speaking kit manufacturers, especially kit an kilo manufacturers, are concerned with selling more and more kits NOT with the brewer making the best beer possible. They know that if they say in the instructions to wait, they may loose some people to hobbies that have more instant gratification.

They also know that the time that a homebrewer will remain buying kits is relatively short...they know that after a few kits, the brewer will either give up, start brewing extract batches from recipes in books and places like this, formulate their own recipes, or go all grain...so they want to sell as many kits as possible to the new brewer before he moves on to bigger and better things.

SO they know that even their beer will taste better if you leave it longer...but they know that in the time you wait you will be reading and learning and be less likely to buy another kit...They can sell three or four kits to you if you follow their directions in the same time frame that listening to us and waiting a month and bottle conditioning for another 3-4 weeks.

The choice is yours......
 
quick question. IfI have a beer with a very low OG (1.029) how long do I even primary that for? would that still need the 3 or 4 weeks?

Nowadays I just do all my beers for a month, regardless of the gravity. You should do at least a week after fermentation is complete. That's the point, you want the yeast to clean up after fermentation is complete. If you want to do the 2 grav readings over 3 consequetive days thing, then when you are at terminal, you could leave it for another week.

But the way my pipeline is, it's just easier to plan on bottling exactly 4 weeks after yeast pitch.
 
...Since this is my first batch, should I just follow the instructions? Or should I leave it in the primary fermentation bucket longer to make sure? I would prefer to get at least a little bit of the yeast and/or hop residue in the bottles. Not a lot, but a little.

Thanks in advance.

Don’t worry about adequate yeast for bottle conditioning. There will be plenty in suspension even if you primary for 2 months (which I don’t recommend).

I like 2 solid weeks in a primary (3 if the gravity is higher than 1050).
Rack to a secondary vessel for clearing (this also frees up your primary for your next batch).

Secondary clear tank for 7-10 days and you should be ready to go.
 
Hello,
Thank you for the information, all of you. Just fermented my first batch and was so stoked I started the second immediatley after transferring to carboy. My question I began to research (which led me to here) was in regards to no bubbling in airlock after transferring to carboy. THE PRIMARRY QUIT BUBBLING AFTER ABOUT 4-5 DAYS; I transferred and have had the secondary going for about 5 days now. Got a little conciencous three days into secondary and added a second packet of exact yeast used the first time. (is this a problem?) Is it a problem to let the secondary sit post fermentation, assuming specific gravity has been reached, befor bottling. Last question. Will the carbonation take place; knowing I am seeing no bubbling in secondary when I transfer. I know I should just read my book, student and have much to read and little time to pursue hobbies, excuses right! its true. Thank you for any help that anyone can be.
Hank
 
Hello,
Me again, Read the post a second time and answered yet another question I had asked. Still summation of my questions would be greatly appreciated. I will be leaving my IPA second brew in primary for next two three weeks. Thank you for this advice, makes clear sense to do so. This whole 1-2-3 method seems to be a little questioned in previous posts. 3-1-3 is the jist I am getting. Sounds about right??
Last NEW question. ESTER? as an Ochem student currently I am a little displeased to read of carboxcylic acids formation taking place with a live culture such as yeast even knowing they produce OH groups themselves. Oxidation seems a little backward of a procces?? I could have something really twisted with my logic.
Thank you once again, it is trully appreciated.
Hank
 
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