Recipe formulation help?

TIA

Looking for beer with a big bready, yeasty flavor. I do all grain BIAB but wouldn't be opposed to partial or extract.

I'm thinking Pilsner for a base malt. Would one region's Pilsner be more appropriate? I'm wondering if some White Wheat would go far too? Any others that should be on my radar?

For adjuncts I'm thinking Vienna, and Munich. Any others that should be on my radar?

For yeast I'm thinking S-04 at the low end of the temperature range. Any others that should be on my radar?

Do I seem to be on track? What % levels of either or both adjuncts would give me over the top bready/yeasty flavors (or others?) There should be some "chew" to this beer but not residual sweetness and still a dry finish so would I get that easier with higher adjuncts and a 148F mash? Perhaps a bit of melanoidin?

I've brewed for a couple years now so I am still learning the different malts and this would be my first foray outside of beer style guidelines as a safety net. This will be a small experimental batch (2-3 gallons), just the base for some other tricks I got up my sleeve. I haven't done many bready/yeasty flavored beers. Any suggestions appreciated. I get something stuck in my head and I need to work it out to the end or I grow tired of it. :cross:

TIA

Pilsner malt doesn't taste the least "bready" to me- it's a very light base malt with very little in the way of much flavor, especially a bready flavor. I'd suggest using a British malt- either Maris Otter or Golden Promise malt- for that bready malt flavor. For a great yeast flavor, consider an English yeast strain with a bready/yeast flavor. I'd ferment a bit higher if I wanted some esters, maybe 66-68 degrees.

If you mash at under 150, you will end up with a rather thin, dry, beer. That seems contrary to wanting a bready beer but I guess it depends on your goals.

If I go over 150 in the mash won't I end up with a sweeter thicker beer? The chewy would be good, but not the sweet.

I thought Pilsner to give a clean blank slate for adjunct malts and wheat to provide the bread tastes along with some body thinking I would be high on the adjunct % (for the thickness and flavor).

Perhaps less adjuncts, higher mash, and biscuity base malts as you suggest is different direction to get there.

How high of fermentation temps do you think S-04 goes from malty to accentuating more of the fruity esters? Not opposed to liquid yeasts at all, just know S-04 can get pretty malty.

Thanks Yoop!

Daddymem said:

If I go over 150 in the mash won't I end up with a sweeter thicker beer? The chewy would be good, but not the sweet.

I thought Pilsner to give a clean blank slate for adjunct malts and wheat to provide the bread tastes along with some body thinking I would be high on the adjunct % (for the thickness and flavor).

Perhaps less adjuncts, higher mash, and biscuity base malts as you suggest is different direction to get there.

How high of fermentation temps do you think S-04 goes from malty to accentuating more of the fruity esters? Not opposed to liquid yeasts at all, just know S-04 can get pretty malty.

Thanks Yoop!

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"Sweet" comes from ingredients, not mash temperature. If you want a fuller bodied beer, you can mash at 156, for example.

Pilsner malt is really flavorless except for a slight sweet malt flavor. It's really not a blank canvas to add bready notes to, as this should come from the base malt.

I don't use S04 above 64 degrees, as I don't like the esters it gives at higher temperatures. If I want a slight estery profile, I use a different strain.

To clarify, by adjuncts of Vienna or Munich I'd be talking 50% or more of the base, so technically I guess we are talking about using them like base malts. So 50% of the toasty malts on top of the lightest malt is what I was originally getting at.

I now see possibly two trains of thought:

1. Light base malt with >50%+ of vienna and/or munich. say 40/30/30
2. British base malt with <50% of vienna and/or munich. say 60/20/20

I'm leery of higher mash temperatures as I once did a Tripel with what turned out to be a faulty thermometer (it read over 10F low) and got a cloyingly sweet, thick beer.

Heh, just looked up to realize a sentence about using Melanoiden got lost in my writing. I was suggesting lower mash temps and using melanoiden to try to get a dry finish but still have body, somehow that sentence disappeared. I haven't used melanoiden before so wasn't sure how that affected mash temps.

I usually do 62F for S-04, but I don't use it often enough to be too familiar with it.

Thanks for the ideas...the brain keeps a turnin'.

But..........A tripel should be thin, crisp and light bodied. A "bready" beer should be full and rich. I mash my tripel at 147-149, but I mash my Dead Guy clone at 156. It really depends on the style. Ingredients are huge as well, so something with crystal malt will finish sweeter tasting than something without it as an example. There is a HUGE difference between full bodied and "sweet".

It seems like you're really at cross purposes here. Mashing low, for a thin fermentable wort that will finish dry. But then adding melanoidin malt for malty flavor to cover up for the low mash temp. Then, using a flavorless base malt to start with, but adding other malts to bring bready flavors. I'm not understanding your goals apparently.

Yooper said:

There is a HUGE difference between full bodied and "sweet".

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Exactly. On that tripel which should have been 149F but ended up being 159F+, it was 100% pale malt and it came out thick and sweet. I just want to make sure I don't get that again.

I want big body mouthfeel (vienna, munich, melanoiden in high %?).
I don't want sweet (hence the malts mentioned so far).
I'd like to have a dry-ish finish (lower mash temps?).
I want toasty, bready, yeasty, liquid bread flavors (malts chosen, then yeast).

With so many variables it becomes complicated. There may be too many goals to be able to hit perfectly (or some at all), a balance between them would do.

Probably easier to choose something to start with and mold it.

Marris Otter 60%
Vienna 20%
Munich 20%
(replace some MO with melanoiden, 2%?)

Mash Temp 156F
S-04 64F

Hops. Probably low IBU, say 15-20, small dose of CTZ.

What could one expect from that?

Thanks again Yoop!

Hrmmmm. After reading this: 4B - Munich Dunkel
Perhaps a Munich-Dunkel would provide the base for what I am looking for. Haven't had one before. I'll grab a commercial example and see.

Yeah, Munich Dunkel, boosted up a bit and with more body, and subtract the roastiness. That would be the beer I am shooting for as a base for the experiment.

Woohoo! Found a new favorite beer style-Munich Dunkel. Didn't know why I overlooked this style until I went to buy it and found 2 brands at a store with aisles and aisles of beer. I keep gravitating to the German beer styles, I should make sure I've tried them all...