WhoGarden (hoegaarden clone)

i decided to name my clone WhoGarden and will design a label that has something to do with this guy:



haven't made a label in a while

anywho *chuckle* here is the all-grain recipe:

WhoGarden All-Grain

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

16-A Belgian & French Ale, Witbier

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 10 Max IBU: 20
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 4 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 9.00
Anticipated OG: 1.045 Plato: 11.25
Anticipated SRM: 3.4
Anticipated IBU: 11.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.10 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.035 SG 8.80 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0 4.50 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
25.0 2.25 lbs. Torrified Wheat America 1.034 2
22.2 2.00 lbs. White Wheat Belgium 1.040 3
2.8 0.25 lbs. Sauer(acid) Malt 1.035 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 1.90 9.4 90 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 1.90 1.7 10 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Lbs Rice Hulls Other 90 Min.(mash)
0.50 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil)
0.25 Oz Bitter Orange Peel Spice 5 Min.(boil)
0.25 Oz Sweet Orange Peel Spice 5 Min.(boil)
2.00 gm Cumin Spice 5 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP400 Belgian Wit Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs: 9.00
Water Qts: 14.40 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.60 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.60 - Before Additional Infusions

Protein Rest Temp : 122 Time: 30
Saccharification Rest Temp : 150 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 4.32 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

Click to expand...

NOTE: my mash will actually be 4 gallons, but still 1.60 qts/pound if you consider the rice hulls. i think that will work fine.

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NOTE: the first time i do this, i am not adjusting my water. we'll see how it goes. if future experiments warrant water adjustments, we'll go from there.

Click to expand...

here is the partial mash version:

WhoGarden Partial Mash

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

16-A Belgian & French Ale, Witbier

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 10 Max IBU: 20
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 4 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 7.25
Anticipated OG: 1.041 Plato: 10.19
Anticipated SRM: 4.7
Anticipated IBU: 11.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.10 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.032 SG 7.96 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
34.5 2.50 lbs. Briess DME- Weizen America 1.046 8
31.0 2.25 lbs. Torrified Wheat America 1.034 2
31.0 2.25 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
3.4 0.25 lbs. Sauer(acid) Malt 1.035 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 1.90 9.4 90 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 1.90 1.7 10 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 Lbs Rice Hulls Other 90 Min.(mash)
0.50 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil)
0.25 Oz Bitter Orange Peel Spice 5 Min.(boil)
0.25 Oz Sweet Orange Peel Spice 5 Min.(boil)
2.00 gm Cumin Spice 5 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP400 Belgian Wit Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs: 4.75
Water Qts: 8.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 2.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.68 - Before Additional Infusions

Protein Rest Temp : 122 Time: 30
Saccharification Rest Temp : 150 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 2.38 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

Click to expand...

NOTE: If you do all of the extract as a late addition, adjust your bittering hops down to 0.75 oz of 1.9% Styrian Goldings.

The color is a little higher on the PM, it's unavoidable. but it's still VERY close and you can help even more by adding your extract in the last 15 minutes of the boil. turn off the heat and remove from burner, stir in your extract, and then start your boil again. then add your 10 minute hops.

Click to expand...

NOTE: I based these recipes on my setup, so check the efficiency against your system and adjust your base grains accordingly (i would add more wheat for adjustment before adding pilsner...keep them pretty even)

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If you have never done a partial mash before, check the link in my sig. it's extremely easy with the method i've laid out and does not require expensive equipment.

if you have any questions at all, feel free to send me a message or post in this thread. i would love for other people to join in this experiment and i'm here to help.

This is a wonderful beer to try because it is ready to drink VERY quickly. I could probably have this in a keg and ready to drink 3 weeks from brew day. That means, i could put out 4 of these in 3 months, back to back, perfecting the recipe. sound fun?

tasting this commercial hoegaarden right now, i really do think it is pretty much a 50/50 blend of wheat/barley. i can't wait to taste it fresh!

:rockin:

Cumin? Really? I know the taste of cumin but I cannot imagine that distinct taste coming from cumin. I honestly think that it just a very very perfect balance between corriander and wheat and sweet and bitter orange.

i dunno...i have it on good authority from a fellow brewer who used cumin in his wit that really worked well and gave it a hoegaarden-esque flavor.

i'm using a very small amount. if it doesn't work, i can remove on the next batch i make in 3 weeks

thanks for the thought, tho. we'll see how it tastes this time around.

yeah is that milligrams your doing? I would honestly (from 10 years of cooking experience) start super super small on the amount of cumin. Average amount for a full 4-6 people dish is less then .125oz.

i posted the recipe highgravitybrew uses and they use cumin. when i did my extract and all grains it tastes great. on that note i think ill try the orig and the homebrew back to back again.

Patience is killing me. I think its time to start brewing beers with faster turnarounds.

Arneba28 said:

yeah is that milligrams your doing? I would honestly (from 10 years of cooking experience) start super super small on the amount of cumin. Average amount for a full 4-6 people dish is less then .125oz.

Click to expand...

my fellow brewer who advised this has been a culinary teacher for years and is probably the best chef i know.

that being said, i'm not decided on the amount. we'll figure it out today, he's brewing with me. i just wanted to make it small in the recipe.

2 grams = 0.0705479239 ounces.

hmmm well you could always buy the 2 hoegaarden spice packs from AHB

*bump*

How did this recipe turn out?

it was excellent. a damn fine example of a belgian white, but not quite a hoegaarden...it was actually too flavorful.

i'm going to use more wheat in the next attempt, to try and get the color right and get a lighter flavor. i'm getting rid of the acid malt, too. i'll cut down on the gravity, too, make it more watery and lighter.

Just a side question, I am just about to start a Wit tomorrow and am using pilsner malt instead of Pale. I am curious if it will give the typical ale a bit more "bite". I have only brewed a dozen or so beers and despite all being good, they just haven't had that taste i have gotten from any commercial brews i have tried to duplicate. I know not lagering my beers makes a difference, but am just wondering if simply using pilsner malt instead of pale 2-row would change the flavor that much?

pilsner malt will be cleaner and smoother in flavor. it is kilned at a lower temperature than pale malt.

pilsner malt can supposedly leave some dms (veggie flavor), so you want to have a nice vigorous boil...some suggest 90 minutes to make sure it's all boiled off.

pilsner malt is the traditional malt for witbier as well as hefeweizens and many belgian beers. it's not just for lagers.

BJCP 2008 Style Guidelines - Category 16

Awesome, thanks for the update. I am trying to come up with a recipe for something similar to Hoegaarden and will keep these tips in mind.

DeathBrewer said:

it was excellent. a damn fine example of a belgian white, but not quite a hoegaarden...it was actually too flavorful.

i'm going to use more wheat in the next attempt, to try and get the color right and get a lighter flavor. i'm getting rid of the acid malt, too. i'll cut down on the gravity, too, make it more watery and lighter.

Click to expand...

My wit went into the fermenter this weekend at 1.048 with 1/2# of corn sugar. It was 50% raw wheat. I'll let you know how it turns out. I was trying to clone Celis white, which has a lot more spice and orange flavor than Hoegaarden. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/celis-white-clone-77698/index2.html#post822546

Hopefully between these two we'll figure out something that works.

sweet, let me know. the raw wheat will probably give better color than the torrified wheat.

that's actually a great idea to use a little bit of sugar to lighten the body. it never even crossed my mind. maybe i'll give WhoGarden another shot this weekend!

I did the whole protein rest, at 122* and then 154* which was a pain because the infusion to 2 qt/lb didn't quite get me there.. I had to heat with my heat stick to get the rest of the way up. I probably will do the cereal mash next time on the stove top so I can skip the protein rest.

The color with the raw wheat is amazing. It looked pure white, like Hoegaarden, whereas my last attempt with wheat malt was golden in color. I can't wait to see how this one turns out.

my mash was white, too. it looked like milk. crazy stuff.

i'll have to read up on the cereal mash a bit more. my friend has been doing alot of that stuff (he did a gluten-free beer that was awesome) but i'm still slacking in that department.

I didn't find much on it online. I talked about it with a few guys in the local club who make nice wits. They tell me they take the cereal grains (oats, wheat) and give them a 20-30 minute rest at 122*, then boil them to gelatinize the starch and add it to the mash. The trick seems to be to use the decoction calculations to figure out how much the temp of the main mash will rise so you can hit your sacc rest temp. It's complicated. If I try it, I will just let the cereal mash cool down to my sacc rest temp and then add it to the mash since it seems easier.

that doesn't sound too bad. i've done a few decoction mashes...i think i can manage. i'll just try to hit it a little low my first time so i can heat up in the keggle to my desired saccharification rest.

just read a few things online. looks like if i want i can just do the unmalted adjuncts by themselves in the boil and forget about doing the rest for the cereal mash, then add straight to the mash which will already be in the protein rest.

i think i'll buy some unmalted wheat and oats from whole foods and give this another go soon. this weekend is out, tho. i forgot...lots of halloween parties going on

Sounds like a plan. Keep in mind the raw wheat is very very hard to mill. My arm almost fell off cranking my barley crusher. And that was just 4# of the stuff.

The Hoegaarden clone seems to be a frequently requested brew. I certainly am hooked on wits now!

i enjoy wits, but i'm not a crazy about the flavor, it's just such a damn interesting style. i want to learn the magic

i use the perfect crusher at my LHBS...no reason to get anything else at this time, i'm there every few days anyway. sounds like you need to get a motor or a drill or something! no sense in losing a good arm when there is beer to be made!

Death -- for what it's worth -- i brewed this recipe over the summer and
came pretty darned close to the commercial Hoegaarden.

I think the most important thing was using the yeast from Hoegaarden itself.

-----------------------------

Whogarden?

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

19-B Belgian & French Ale, Witbier

Min OG: 1.042 Max OG: 1.055
Min IBU: 15 Max IBU: 22
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 4 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 12.00
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.98
Anticipated SRM: 3.9
Anticipated IBU: 16.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.041 SG 10.25 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.7 5.00 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
41.7 5.00 lbs. Flaked Soft White Wheat America 1.034 2
4.2 0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033 2
12.5 1.50 lbs. Rice Hulls 1.000 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.75 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 4.00 13.4 60 min.
0.50 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 4.00 2.4 15 min.
0.25 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 4.00 0.7 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 Tsp Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil)
0.75 Tsp Corriander Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil)
0.75 Oz Bitter Orange Peel Spice 15 Min.(boil)
0.50 Oz Bitter Orange Peel Spice 5 Min.(boil)
16.00 Oz Pear Juice Fruit 0 Days(fermenter)


Yeast
-----
Starter from 2 Hoegarden bottles.



Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 12.00
Water Qts: 15.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.75 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 151 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 0 Time: 0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 4.71 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

WLP400 is the Hoegaarden strain, FWIW.

DeathBrewer said:

it was excellent. a damn fine example of a belgian white, but not quite a hoegaarden...it was actually too flavorful.

i'm going to use more wheat in the next attempt, to try and get the color right and get a lighter flavor. i'm getting rid of the acid malt, too. i'll cut down on the gravity, too, make it more watery and lighter.

Click to expand...

So what does your updated receipt look like? AG and Partial versions....

haven't really thrown it together yet. i'll post the next time i brew it up.

jhb said:

0.50 Tsp Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil)
0.75 Tsp Corriander Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil)

Click to expand...

Is that crushed? I got way too much corriander flavor when I crush it a lot. But I did use more on my batch. Fourth attempt tomorrow.

can't wait for that recipe update death!

Also,
is raw wheat the same as the unmalted wheat at AHS?? http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_71_112&products_id=121

yes! i may have to order that...i can only get the torrified at my LHBS.

maybe i'll do this recipe again next weekend. i'm working on an upgraded banana bread ale this week

Arn't clone names usually a little different then the original.

Hoegaarden is pronounced Who-Garden.

exactly subtle, isn't it?

Use good quality Indian coriander and don't crush it too much. I used 1oz of Coriander in my wit, but I crushed it with a mortar and pestle. You don't want to pulverize it.

i crush mine with a beer bottle! hahahaha

I'm also doing a Hoegaarden clone this Saturday, no cumin for me though regarding the yeast, it seems generally accepted that WP400 is the stuff. However, has anyone determined for sure whether or not the bottle sediment is the real yeast or whether it is just a conditioning yeast? Reason being - I harvested some from a bottle already (before I found out about WP400) and bought WP400 as a back-up. I'm tempted to try the harvested yeast (mainly for novelty) and in case it has picked up any characteristics from sitting in a Hoegaarden bottle. Is this a good idea, or should I just use the WP400 and dump the other stuff?

I'm not that risk-averse, but I don't want to ruin a whole batch just because I used a cheap-ass conditioning yeast on it.

This page claims that the Hoegaarden is bottle conditioned with the primary strain.

That said, whenever possible I use White Labs or Wyeast and then wash the primary cake. Splitting the saved yeast across four jars brings the per-batch cost down to less than dry yeast. There is nothing wrong with culturing your own yeast as long as you are psychotic about sanitation and you slowly step the starter up 3-4x all the way up to 2L.

Saccharomyces said:

This page claims that the Hoegaarden is bottle conditioned with the primary strain.

That said, whenever possible I use White Labs or Wyeast and then wash the primary cake. Splitting the saved yeast across four jars brings the per-batch cost down to less than dry yeast. There is nothing wrong with culturing your own yeast as long as you are psychotic about sanitation and you slowly step the starter up 3-4x all the way up to 2L.

Click to expand...

I brewed on Saturday with my cultured yeast. I stepped it to 1L, but didn't have enough time to get it to 2L. I aerated the wort a little to help compensate - time will tell if that will be enough or not. Either way, it was bubbling aggressively by Sunday morning so we'll see what happens. I still have that WLP400 I can step up and throw in a secondary if the FG isn't where I need it to be.

if you're going to pitch the WLP400 because the yeast isn't attenuating well, you can do it in the primary. i wouldn't rack off your yeast cake early, even if you are repitching.

Well, I ended up pitching the cultured yeast rather than the WLP400 - just because I felt like being adventurous. That was seven days ago. I went to keg it tonight and, to my surprise, there was still a thick layer of krausen on top. Evidently, the yeast hasn't finished its job yet - but I guess it hasn't quit on me either. The gravity is only at about 1.022 now - I had a target FG of 1.011. I've attached a picture below. I guess I'll just let it go another several days and check it until the krausen is gone - but should I be concerned that it's taking so long? I still have the WLP400 that I can pitch if needed.

FYI, I'm not planning on doing a secondary fermentation - I'm going to age for a couple months in the keg right after primary. My reasoning is that I'm going for that cloudy "wit" look. Thanks.

This strain takes 2-3 weeks to finish for me. It's a slow one.

Oh, and don't age it. This beer is best one month after brewday. After that it starts to lose some of its flavor. After six weeks the spice and yeast character is more muted than after four. More than two months it's still good, but it's not great.

7 days is too quick. it can be done, but i would wait two weeks and then go straight to keg.

you want cloudy, you don't want sludge.

Thanks for the tip(s). Like I said, this is my first AG batch, and it's never taken me more than 4-5 days for primary before.