1st and 2nd brews take like apples (sort of)

Hi All,

I am new to home brewing, and have brewed two 5 gallon batches so far, which have been for the most part unsuccessful. One bottled and the other kegged. Unfortunately both batches have a similar apple smell/taste. I am getting discouraged (but will not give-up), and would like some advice.

Let me explain my processes:

First Brew;

• A Coopers pre-hopped IPA extract kit from LHBS. It contained the extract, LDM, yeast and corn sugar for priming.
• All equipment was cleaned with a non-scented dish detergent, and sanitized with StarSan. I am pretty meticulous when it comes to keeping anything clean, so I think I am Ok here.
• Light malt extract and dry malt extract where boiled for specified time according to LHBS instructions.
• Cooled wort down to about 75 deg., and added to 65 deg. water in fermenter. Ended up with about a 68 Deg. 5 gallon batch.
• Pitched yeast.
• Fermented for 10 days around the same temp (68). Checked FG. Waited 2 days and checked FG again. Results were the same. Waited 1 more day.
• Racked to bottling bucket (which already contained the corn sugar), trying to avoid aeration.
• Bottled with wand, and capped.
• Bottles sat in room temp for 2 weeks in a box.
• Cooled a bottle for 1 week, and it tastes like ?apple cider?maybe? hard to explain.
• It has been about 6 weeks since bottling, and the beer still kinda tastes like crap. Same cidery smell/taste (although not as bad). I can only drink one or two before switching to a store brand. I attributed this to old extract, no hops and inexperience.

I really enjoyed the process of brewing my own beer, and I know I will be doing this for many years to come. But, I didnt like the bottling process, so I purchased a keg system.

Second Brew;

• This Kit was a little more advanced, but still using an extract. LME, Light Dry Malt, Crystal Malt, Bittering, Flavoring and Finishing hops, yeast (Nottingham) and Irish Moss.
• 60 minute boil with a hop schedule according to instructions (using timer).
• Cooled wort to about 68 deg, and added to 68 deg water
• Re-hydrated yeast
• Pitched yeast
• Fermented @ 68 deg (temp controlled) in primary for 3 weeks.
• Took FG, and got the same apple smell in the fermenter.
• Waited 10 days, took another reading. No change, but still same smell.
• Racked this one directly to keg.
• Since I was worried about the apple smell, I dry-hopped with 1.5 oz of cascade pellets.
• It has been in the keg for 7 days, 40 deg, @ 12 psi.

I took a sample today and I got a similar appley smell/taste as the first batch. What I find strange is that there is no indication of hops at all. Only the apple taste. I know it has only been a week, but there should be a pretty decent hop aroma by now with dry hopping.

Now I have about 40 bottles of not-so-good to drink beer, and a keg of apple tasting beer.

The taste is really hard to describe, but I will try...
First batch has a little bit of a cider taste, but malty.
Second batch has sort of a green apple cider taste.

Oddly enough, I happen to to have red apples, green apples, apple cider and apple vinegar in the house.

I tried to compare the beer (new one in the keg) to them.
I would say it smells like the green apples (a little sour), but tastes like the green apples mixed with the apple vinegar.

There must be something that I am doing wrong.
LHBS is the only one in the area. The turnaround is pretty high, so malts are fresh.

Thanks,
vbrew

Sounds like good old fashioned acetaldehyde. This is usually a taste associated with "green" beer. Acetaldehyde is a compound produced by the yeast during the fermentation process. It is the final compound produced by the yeast before ethanol. I can see this being the case, maybe with your first beer. 10 days can be a little young.

As for your second beer, 3 weeks should have taken care of this. But, if you are detecting some vinegar in your beer. It is very possible that you may have an acetobacter infection.

HOw is your clarity? could this be suspended yeast?

acetaldehyde can be caused by a sanitation issue or by rushing your beer. I had it hit me with an APA that I rushed to bottles for a competition (big mistake) and a few extra weeks at room temp helped it. Normally, a bit more time spent in primary will insure you don't get it. Assuming it's from rushing. If it's a sanitation issue then you need to address that separately and time won't wound that heel.

Did you use tap water?

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I did some reading about acetaldehyde, and from what I understand this is usually caused by 'green beer' or an infection.
My first batch could have definitely been green, because I was having trouble waiting to get it bottled and drink. It has ot gotten much better with age though. That is exactly why I left my second batch in the primary for about 4 weeks.

Concerning the sanitation; I have been very careful to clean and sanitize everything that will be in contact with the wort. I even soak my hands in the starsan solution. I also did not see any visual signs of an infection.

Clarity of my first batch is excellent, but the 2nd batch definitely has some floaties. Looks like it could be suspended yeast, or some of the hops got loose from dry hopping.
But, why would both batches have a similar taste if this was the causes?

I did read the 'how to brew' section of off flavors before posting as well. Of all mentioned I would have to say acetaldehyde is the closest.

I did use tap water for both batches.
My tap water has a little bit of a bleach odor. It actually is not too pleasant to drink. I just noticed the odor this morning while drink a glass. I usually brink bottled water, so I have never noticed it before.

Since both batches have a similar issue, I am attributing it to something that is common of the two.
Clarity - No
Sanitary issue - I really don't so. I have been extremely diligent about sanitizing
Green - Possible, but the 2nd batch was in the primary for quite some time.
Water - Maybe. I never even thought about this.

I wounder if using a secondary would help? Or maybe bottled water?

I suggest eliminating your water as an issue. I started brewing with prehopped kits again this year. I wanted to see if they were really as bad as I remember over 15 years ago. I have had nothing but good results. I now use them on a regular basis to have something going when I don't want to spend half a day with an all grain.

The only thing I see that I do different is use store bought water. I don't trust my old iron pipes and have heard bad things about filtering water in a Brita pitcher. I do ferment in chest freezers so temperature is well controlled. I even went so far to use 30% cane sugar with one kit. Still no cidery or apple flavors. It came out tasting just like an adjunct lager. I did use a lager yeast, fermented at 50 degrees and then lagered for 4 weeks at 34 degrees.

PT Ray said:

I... have heard bad things about filtering water in a Brita pitcher.

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I hadn't heard this. What's bad about it?

Justibone said:

I hadn't heard this. What's bad about it?

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One thing is it will strip the chlorine and chlorimes from the water. Allowing it to become contaminated easier if it sits out. The other is it's a bacteria haven. The moisture in the filter and the access to air will start catering to bacteria. With a week old filter, the bacteria count was higher in the filtered water than from the tap.


It seems logical.

Makes sense!

PT Ray said:

I suggest eliminating your water as an issue. I started brewing with prehopped kits again this year. I wanted to see if they were really as bad as I remember over 15 years ago. I have had nothing but good results. I now use them on a regular basis to have something going when I don't want to spend half a day with an all grain.

The only thing I see that I do different is use store bought water. I don't trust my old iron pipes and have heard bad things about filtering water in a Brita pitcher. I do ferment in chest freezers so temperature is well controlled. I even went so far to use 30% cane sugar with one kit. Still no cidery or apple flavors. It came out tasting just like an adjunct lager. I did use a lager yeast, fermented at 50 degrees and then lagered for 4 weeks at 34 degrees.

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Thanks PT Ray,

I think I'm going to try store bought water for my next batch. I have old pipes also, so maybe there are some contaminates getting in there.
I'm glad you mentioned the Brita filter, because I was about to try that next.

My temp control is pretty good.
I keep the ferment in an unheated pantry which stays @ about 55 to 60 degrees. I have the fermenter in a water bath and I regulate the temp with an aquarium heater. Temp stays within 2 degrees of 67.

I hope my next batch turns out better.

I had a pretty major acetylaldehyde problem when I started brewing. My first coopers kit actually tasted like apple cider so much that you couldn't even taste a hint of the beer underneath. My big problem was temperature control, which I corrected and haven't had problems since. I have since gone all grain, but the thing that I did that improved my brewing the most was temperature control.

PT Ray said:

One thing is it will strip the chlorine and chlorimes from the water. Allowing it to become contaminated easier if it sits out. The other is it's a bacteria haven. The moisture in the filter and the access to air will start catering to bacteria. With a week old filter, the bacteria count was higher in the filtered water than from the tap.


It seems logical.

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For brewing water, the whole point is using it is to strip out the chlorine and chloramines, and if I'm boiling it then I wouldn't be worried about bacteria being introduced.

I buy bottled water for my brew though.

ChshreCat said:

For brewing water, the whole point is using it is to strip out the chlorine and chloramines, and if I'm boiling it then I wouldn't be worried about bacteria being introduced.

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That doesn't apply when brewing with a prehopped kit. I don't waste the dime on store bought water for my all grain for that reason. I can filter the water at the house and not worry about bacteria levels.

cklages said:

I had a pretty major acetylaldehyde problem when I started brewing. My first coopers kit actually tasted like apple cider so much that you couldn't even taste a hint of the beer underneath. My big problem was temperature control, which I corrected and haven't had problems since. I have since gone all grain, but the thing that I did that improved my brewing the most was temperature control.

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At what point did you have your temperature control problem? I'm just using one of those stick-on thermometers on my fermenter.
I have digital gauge for while it's fermenting, but until that point, I just use the stick-on one. In the fermenter, I don't let go above 68.
Maybe I am pitching the yeast too warm? Could that be causing my cidery taste as well?

I just took another sample. It's so hard to describe the exact taste.
Kind of a sour apple or sour green grape taste, and I don't smell even a hint hops. With almost 2oz in the keg, I should get some hop aroma at this point.

ChshreCat said:

For brewing water, the whole point is using it is to strip out the chlorine and chloramines, and if I'm boiling it then I wouldn't be worried about bacteria being introduced.

I buy bottled water for my brew though.

Click to expand...

So for full-boils, Brita is not a problem, but I'll be careful before I top off with Brita water. Thanks guys!

vbrew said:

At what point did you have your temperature control problem? I'm just using one of those stick-on thermometers on my fermenter.
I have digital gauge for while it's fermenting, but until that point, I just use the stick-on one. In the fermenter, I don't let go above 68.
Maybe I am pitching the yeast too warm? Could that be causing my cidery taste as well?

Click to expand...

The inside of the beer can be warmer than the stick-on. I'm not sure what the difference is, but if in doubt you could drop the temp a few degrees lower, just to be sure.

PT Ray said:

That doesn't apply when brewing with a prehopped kit. I don't waste the dime on store bought water for my all grain for that reason. I can filter the water at the house and not worry about bacteria levels.

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I beg to differ. I don't think you'd want chlorine in your brew either way.

ChshreCat said:

I bet to differ. I don't think you'd want chlorine in your brew either way.

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Your are correct my feline friend. But if removing it is at the cost of adding bacteria to your beer I would either use store bought water or deal with the chlormines.

At what point did you have your temperature control problem? I'm just using one of those stick-on thermometers on my fermenter.
I have digital gauge for while it's fermenting, but until that point, I just use the stick-on one. In the fermenter, I don't let go above 68.
Maybe I am pitching the yeast too warm? Could that be causing my cidery taste as well?

Click to expand...

I had major fluctuations during fermentation in the room, but figured because there was 6 gallons of liquid, they would be minimized in the beer itself. I really underestimated the effects, but ended up with a few cases of 'cider beer' before I went and got a chest freezer with a digital controller. I set it to 63 degrees and the problem has not re-occurred.

If I were you, I would really concentrate on temperature. I don't know about the aquarium heater setup, but as long as the room is cool enough, perhaps you could drop the temp down to like 60 degrees in the water bath, knowing that the fermenting beer will raise the temp a few degrees, and should put you right in the range you need.

I would bet that you could even drop the temp in the bath to 55 and end up with the fermentation at 60 which should give you an exceptionally clean beer with the notty that you used (assuming that you don't get a bum batch of notty, which happens, i know).

Believe me I know all about cidery beer, it was my first major problem. It was also the first major problem that I overcame

edited to add: I notice that you mentioned with your second brew that you re-hydrated the yeast. I think that this is a good idea, as that helps to increase the number of viable cells you start with and reduces ester formation (which can be a source of 'fruit' flavours).

I have to revive this thread once again, because I am still having the same problem and need some advice.

Brewed 2 more batches (3rd and 4th) since this thread started, and both of them taste like the first 2 did. I don't get it.

So far I have brewed four batches, and have somehow gotten them all to taste the same. The first two were IPA, the third was an APA. I really like this style, so I was trying to get it right. After not being successful, my fourth was a Kolsch. I thought by trying something radically different than a pale ale I would certainly get a different taste. I did not.

I took the advice of others here and changed a few things, trying to eliminate problem areas.

1. Used bottled water (for the 3rd batch)
2. Made certain the wort temp was cool enough for the yeast strain before pitching
3. Bought a temperature controller (ranco 2 stage) to keep temp constant

Details of the 3rd and fourth batches:

3rd - APA:

• Used an APA kit made-up by my LHBS, and followed instructions for boiling, hop additions
• Cooled wort in an ice bath to 65 deg
• Cleaned all equipment with oxyclean and rinsed
• Sanitized everything that will be in contact with wort using starsan
• Poured hot wort into fermentation bucket, and added bottled water to get to 5 gal. Water was also @ 65 deg
• Transferred wort back and forth a few times between two fermentation buckets to aerate
• OG 1.051
• Pitched nottingham yeast with a starter made from pre-boiled bottled water
• Sealed fermenter lid, and put airlock in filled to line with vodka
• Put fermenter in pantry which remains about 50 to 55 deg this time of year
• Hooked-up brew belt to Ranco temp controller and set to 57 deg with a 2 deg difference. Temp will stay between 55 and 57 (perfect for nottingham). temperature probe was taped to the side of fermenter and insulation taped over that.
• Let it sit in primary for two weeks. FG was a constant 1.010 for three days
• At this point I noticed that same appley? smell, and very strong. So, I drove to the LHBS and bought a 5 gal Better Bottle. My thought was the nottingham was causing the off aroma, and if I got it off the yeast, maybe the apple would go away.
• Let it sit for 2 more weeks in the secondary

The apple taste was still pretty prevalent, and it wasn't getting any better so I kegged it, set to serving pressure and let it sit for a week.
It still tastes like crap. Although, it was less crappy than the 2nd batch so I killed the keg in a couple of weeks instead of dumping it like I did the last. It still tasted bad enough that I couldn't drink more than 2 or 3 without switching to a store bought bottle.
I know there is an increasing movement here to let the beer sit in the fermenter for 4 weeks or more to let the yeast clean-up and do their thing, but this has been the best batch so far. As soon as I got it off yeast and into conditioning, the apple aroma was reduced tremendously.

So...
based on the above information and the first two batches, I thought I nailed the issue. Nottingham yeast!

I figured I would try something totally different. A Kolsch.

4th - Kolsch

• Same steps as 3rd batch, but I used pre-boiled tap water, all DME (no LME), and Wyeast Kolsch 2565 (smack pack activated for about 4 hours)
• temperature was maintained slightly higher for the yeast. 59 to 61
• OG 1.042 FG 1.011

After week in the keg, I tried it tonight.
It tastes like all of the others! I don't get it. It looks great. Color as expected for a Kolsch, 4 srm. OG/FG are OK. It still tastes the same!

I must be missing something.
Sanitation is under control
Temperature is under control
Water does not seem to make a difference

I know this post is huge, but I always see people leaving out bits of information and I wanted to cover everything so it could be analyzed better.

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated. I want to get this right, and I won't give up.
I would send out beers for incentive, but the way they are tasting I wouldn't get any responses.

Thanks

Did you ferment the Kolsch in the better bottle, or in the same fermentor as before?

I will go against a lot of what I have read here and on other forums and say this...

I had the same flavor issues with a coopers english bitter after fermenting in the low 60's. Very strong green apple flavors were present and the beer was not drinkable. My next several kits and all grain batches were fermented closer to 68-71f AMBIENT for the same period of time with different yeast strains (notty, coopers, mountmellick, safeale 04&o5, WL001, Wyeast 1056) and there is no trace of the apple flavor. Just nice clean beer

So try this: Get one of the kits you have already tried and do everything the same, but pitch around 68-72f AMBIENT and ferment around the same temp for at least 10 days. Keeping the temp steady is key here.
It's worth a shot if it worked for me. Might work for you too. I attribute it to the yeast preferring the slightly warmer temps. Either way, my apple flavor problem is solved and the pipeline is full.
Good luck.
YMMV

A couple things to try. I know you said you cleaned with unscented dish soap, I would scrap that and get yourself some oxyclean free or some PBW. RINSE WELL! Several rinses before sanitizing. Also, Replace your siphon tubing and racking cane or auto siphon... they're cheap and if thats harboring whatever is causing the off flavor you'll get rid of the problem immediately. Soak your fermenter in PBW or oxyclean overnight, then give it a soak with a weak bleach solution overnight, rinse well. If you have any doubt about your bottling bucket, do the same, disassemble the spigot and let that soak overnight with your fermenter. One more suggestion, try US-05 yeast instead of Notty if you can get your hands on it, its very reliable and has similar fermentation characteristics.

Justibone said:

Did you ferment the Kolsch in the better bottle, or in the same fermentor as before?

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I did ferment in the same bucket for all batches so far.
The better bottle has been used for conditioning the 3rd and 4th batches. The 3rd batch seemed considerably less crappy when it was taken off the yeast cake after 7 to 10 days, so I used it for the last one as well.

Lando said:

So try this: Get one of the kits you have already tried and do everything the same, but pitch around 68-72f AMBIENT and ferment around the same temp for at least 10 days. Keeping the temp steady is key here.
It's worth a shot if it worked for me. Might work for you too. I attribute it to the yeast preferring the slightly warmer temps. Either way, my apple flavor problem is solved and the pipeline is full.
Good luck.
YMMV

Click to expand...

You know...
I like the outside-the-box idea, and it doesn't sound unreasonable.

So far, I have really tried to stay at the lowest temperature ranges for the yeast strains I have used; Trying to avoid off flavors. Possibly I am creating them.
This might be my next move. Plus, I have a gift cert. for my LHBS, so it could be a freebie test. I can defiantly keep the temp within a couple degrees of my choosing.

KAMMEE said:

A couple things to try. I know you said you cleaned with unscented dish soap, I would scrap that and get yourself some oxyclean free or some PBW. RINSE WELL! Several rinses before sanitizing. Also, Replace your siphon tubing and racking cane or auto siphon... they're cheap and if thats harboring whatever is causing the off flavor you'll get rid of the problem immediately. Soak your fermenter in PBW or oxyclean overnight, then give it a soak with a weak bleach solution overnight, rinse well. If you have any doubt about your bottling bucket, do the same, disassemble the spigot and let that soak overnight with your fermenter. One more suggestion, try US-05 yeast instead of Notty if you can get your hands on it, its very reliable and has similar fermentation characteristics.

Click to expand...

I did use the oxyclean free for the last two batches.
Also, out of pure convenience(laziness), I purchased an auto-siphon after my 2nd batch.
At one point I definitely thought it was the notty, but my last batch was made with Wyeast kolsch yeast, and produced the same flavor.

You've been given some good advice here, and I agree with changing out your hoses and possibly your racking cane. I would also try a new fermenting bucket. It sounds like you're doing everything right, so I sense something physical is to blame for causing a minor infection.

Agreed. The advice has been nothing short of excellent so far.
A new bucket won't hurt, and the cost is inexpensive. I may try this with the temperature change idea from Lando.

What's funny is I have gotten a couple of friends into home brewing as well, they are using me as reference point, and all of their brews have turned out fine. So, there is defiantly a constant variable here that I am missing. I still don't think it's infection related, but anything is possible.

Temp still seems like the main variable though. Are you sure your temp control is correct? Maybe your thermometer is wrong.

I know. Temperature is still my best guess as to the off flavors. That's why I like Lando's idea of maintaining a more ambient or room temperature fermentaion. For the last 3 batches I have kept the temps at the lowest possible for the yeast.

The room temperature where I have been fermenting stays around 50-55 degrees at this time of year. 2 dial thermometers, a digital (aquarium) one, and the Ranco controller tell me this.

I have been using a brew belt hooked-up to the Ranco controller to maintain temps.
The temperature probe is taped to bucket (middle), and then insulation is taped around that. This should give me a fairly accurate reading. But, since fermentation can raise the temperature inside the bucket 5 or 10 degrees, I have been keeping the temps about 5 degrees cooler than the lowest temperature rating for the yeast. OG and FG have been as expected or very close.

Have you always bought your supplies from the same source? Maybe they're old/bad. Yeast need to be refrigerated and have a shelf life.

So far everything has been bought from the same source.
It's the only LHBS in the area, and they do a good business, so I am "assuming" the products have a decent turnaround time.

You might want to try a new source for your ingredients, especially your yeast, for one batch before you replace everything. Or, just change everything up and see if it's definitely something you're doing.

I think I will start with a new bucket, and keep the temp a little closer to room temp for the next batch.

Too many variables, and I may never locate the original issue.

Also, what I have never done is have someone more experienced taste one of my brews. I am just going by my own experiences.
When i go to purchase my new bucket and ingredients, I could always bottle a couple from the keg for the crew at the LHBS to taste. They might say "Oh it's definitely the ?????? that is causing your problem".

Have you thought about using a glass primary? Since you are replacing the plastic anyway, glass has the added benefit of being less insulating leaving the outside the same temperature as the inside. If the equipment you bought came with a glass carboy to use as secondary, just use that, that way you don't have to buy anything.

You do have to ensure that you rig a blowoff, and protect the beer from light. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with plastic persay, but I have used nothing but glass for at least the last year and half, and I do like what it brings to the table.

Oh, also if you don't have a handle on the carboy already I would buy one. Those suckers get slippery when wet!

Hmm, same off-flavor and you've changed your water, yeast, ferm temp, ingredients, ferm time, cleaning solution, etc. This sounds like an infection. Same thing happened to me when I got back into brewing. I was getting discouraged and figured all my beers would always taste like crap, but gave it one last try. I replaced everything: fermentation vessel, hoses, racking canes, siphons, etc. I also began using starters, among their many benefits is the fact that if you get some bad bugs in your beer (which is likely, since we're only sanitizing, not disinfecting), the brewers yeast in a starter will far outnumber them and take over the fermentation. Voila, my first great-tasting, non-infected beer in a long time. Now I'm diligent in my sanitation process, and careful once the wort is cooled to keep everything covered and reduce infection from wild yeast floating by (since I brew outside). Good luck.

Sorry for the late update everyone. I have been away for a few weeks.

I think the problem is solved :rockin:

Before leaving, I purchased two Better Bottles. A 6.5 and a 5 Gallon, and used these to ferment and condition a pilsner. I have been lagering it in a keg for about 3 weeks now. Just tasted a sample, and it is excellent.
I think there may have been something in the fermentation bucket causing the off flavors.
I also made a yeast starter for this one from some light DME.

So, I will continue to use the Better Bottles, and a starter. Hopefully no more issues.

Thanks for the assistance.