New 10 Gallon Herms! Pics!

gsutton said:

Couple questions for you. I read in one of your posts that you used a dip tube and stopper for your thermowell. How did you seal the end of the dip tube? Also, I have an immersion chiller that I would like to use as my heat exchanger. When I set it in my HLT the top of the coils comes to about the 6 gallon mark. Will this be a problem?

Click to expand...

The dip tube is cut to the appropriate length, a rubber seal was inserted into the end and the end was then crimped tight.

My heat exchanger is 1/2" copper tubing. When you start running this system you will see that you want to have the coil come up to about the 5.5 to 6 gallon mark, MAX... it will be okay. This is based on a couple facts about the HLT. When it is completed you will be able to get 9.5 gallons of water in it MAX, the other volume is filled with the coil and other equipment that you are installing. When I say 9,5 gallons max, I mean 1/4" from the top when the lid is on. Once you pump out your strike water 3-4 gallons, you will have 5.5-6.5 gallons of volume still left in your HLT... so you want your coil to be about that height max.
Also, the use of the 1500W element is based on the fact that it is about 7-8" in length, meaning it will be submerged even if you drop to say 4 gallons in the HLT. DONT LET THE ELEMENT RUN DRY!

Does your coil touch the bottom of the cooler or is it suspended? Would it matter if it is touching the cooler bottom? ie. temp

The coil? No, doesnt matter... I mean everything in the HLT is the same temp anyway... anwhere from 155F to 180F depending on your temp setting.

Hey Pol- What length of tubing is needed for the HERMS coil ? About 20-25' or bring it to the 5 gal mark on a 10gal?

I have 25' of 1/2" dia copper tubing... it was marketed at B3 as a "prechiller". I have all 1/2" plumbing on my rig, doesnt cost much more, and the flow rates are so much better than with the 3/8" stuff. With my false bottom I can recirculate at an incredibly fast rate and have not had a stuck sparge yet.

So mine is all built. I wound up using a hand-held mixer from the Kiwanis as my stirrer. Cost $5, and I wired an outlet up to a rheostat so I get reasonable control over the speed of stirring. I planned to brew on it this weekend, but the "dry run" took longer than I expected. Should be able to give it a try next weekend. Look like I get about a 4 degree difference between the HLT and the mash tun when it's 30 degrees in my garage, which works just fine.

Still have to figure out how to mount my pump. My local HBS sells them without the mounting bracket. Looks like I'll be investing in some steel straps.

Yeah, I get from 3-4 degrees difference between my HLT and MLT. Once you have the differential figured out, it is easy to set and forget the HLT temp for the recirc.

Pol,

How did you mount your A419 to your cooler? Velcro? Bracket?

2 SS screws that are aligned with the mounting holes on the controller.

Hey Pol,

Do you remember the settings you have on your A419? I have copied your set up and I assume my settings would be similar.

Settings? Well, it is set for heat... do you mean the jumper position? I can look in my manual if you are speaking of that. Other than that here is what I do, as I recall.

Strike temp +10-15F is what you will need to heat the MLT and then strike.

Differential is set at 1F

There are a couple other settings, that I dont even play with, so you probably dont need to either.

Mash target temp +3F is what I set it at during the mash

Mashout is set at 175F

Excellent! thank you. The differental is one that I was wondering about. I will put the jumper for heat, and I am not sure if I need the other jumper to "cut on" or "cut off". I am on the road until Tuesday and am going to try a batch on "your" setup on Thursday.
I can't wait to try it. I really appreciat all of your help. A couple more questions. Do you batch sparge or fly sparge? How did you come up with the formula to figure out how much cool water to add to the HLT after dough in?

I fly sparge... I am pretty handy at matching my INflow to my OUT flow... The reason that I fly sparge with this system mainly, is that after you recirc for 30 minutes to an hour, and you see how sparkling clear your wort is from a nice grain bed... you will NOT want to mix it up and ruin all of that! That would absolutely cancel out one of the great benefits of using a HERMS.

The formula is basically a thermodynamic equation that takes into consideration two different volumes of water, at two different temperatures, mixed together and thier resultant temp. Ummmm, I built a spreadsheet for this. Do you have excel? You see, the spreadsheet is almost a necesity for running the HLT efficiently.


It asks for your TOTAL WATER REQ. (from your brewing software)
*I add 1.5 gallons to this for the water that is lost in the bottom of the HLT and in the HEX coil during the sparge
It asks for your RECIRC TEMP (MLT target +3F)
It asks you for the initial QTY in the HLT (generally the full 9.5gal cap.)
It asks you for your STRIKE volume (from your brewing software)
Then asks you for your INITIAL HLT temp (this is your STRIKE +10-15F)
Then asks you the TEMP of the ADDITIONAL HLT water (the water you add after you strike, 68F or whatever the temp is in your house, or where it is stored)

THEN shows you he resultant QTY after striking (so that you dont run your element dry after striking, must be > 4 gallons)
Shows you the quantity to add to the HLT after you strike(to reach your TOTAL WATER REQ volume)
Shows you the FINAL temp of the HLT after you add the water to the HLT after the strike.
Shows you the final volume of the HLT during the recirc.
Shows you the TIME to heat the HLT water to your recirc temp (if it is below what you desire for the recirc)

If you have excel or something like it, I can get this program to you, it makes running a HERMS pretty dummy proof.
I can ACTUALLY run my HLT DRY when I am sparging, run my MLT DRY... and have the EXACT ammount of runoff in my boil kettle!

Here is an example of the water calcualtion for BLACK LABs Orange Cascade APA!

I input:

TOTAL WATER NEEDED: 10.5 gal
HERMS RECIRC TEMP: 158 (155 target +3F)
HLT PRE STRIKE VOLUME: 9 gallons
STRIKE VOLUME: 3.4 gallons
HLT PRE STRIKE TEMP: 180F (169F strike +11 degrees)
HLT ADD WATER (post strike) temp: 70F

It spits out:

HLT POST STRIKE QTY: 5.6 gal (> 4 gal so your element remains submerged during the strike transfer)
ADD WATER QTY: 1.5 gal (this, plus your initial 9 gal, is your TOTAL WATER REQ.)
FINAL HLT TEMP: 157F (this is after you strike and include your ADD water at 70F)
HLT WATER QTY: 7.1 gal. (volume in HLT during the recirc)
TIME TO HEAT: .9 mins (to heat 7.1 gallons in the HLT from 157F above, to 158F which is your commanded recirc temp in your HLT)

Does this make sense? It does more than tell you water temp, it also has a couple safeguards in so that you have enough water to keep the element submerged, know how long it will take to heat your HLT to your recirc temp (if it falls below) etc.

You can tweak the outcomes of the equations by adjusting the INITIAL HLT QTY, the HLT PRE STRIKE TEMP, ADD WATER TEMP, STRIKE VOLUME etc... by doing so you can get your HLT temp to EXACTLY what you need to start your recirc after dough in.

I have Excel, and would LOVE the spreadsheet!

PM me your email address and it is all yours bud... it took me a while to build the equations, but they are guaranteed to work. I have used this spreadsheet for all of my brews on my HERMS without fail.

Actually this is a WORKS spreadsheet, but that should work... right?!

Pol,

The last thing I need to do is the HERMS return. Do you use the Loc-Line fir the return and the fly sparge? I unfortunately ordered 1/4 inch instead of 1/2 inch, and before I order more I wanted to verify how you do it.

Also, I am anxiously awaiting your Bling Bling kettle project.

Yeah, I use the Loc-Line for the HERMS return and the sparge. I actually run my sparge water THROUGH the HERMS coil... helps to clean it out after all that sticky wort.

I used the 1/2" line simply for ease of connecting it to my QDs and becuse you can get a lot of flow, with minimal velocity out the tip. READ: faster recirculating without creating a violent whirlpool in the MLT, disturbing the grain bed. ALSO, order (2) lengths of the Loc Line... I think they are 12" each? You will want this so that you are not "dropping" your wort in there.

How did that spreadsheet work for ya???

For those wondering, the HLT element is installed this way:

The HLT is simply heated by a 1500W, 120VAC high density heating element. Mine is controlled by the Ranco, mainly because it needs to be tweaked during the mash while the HERMS is running.

I simply used 2 hole saws to get the element in there.

I used a 2" hole saw to drill through the OUTER shell of the cooler and through the foam insulation. Once the arbor hits the INNER shell, STOP DRILLING.

I then used a 1.25" hole saw to drill a smaller hole through the INNER shell only.

I used a 1" PVC sleeve and placed it over the electrical connection end of the element once the wires were connected. I then filled the cavity left inside the sleeve/around the electrical connections, with JB Weld to pot the connections.

Once this is complete, you insert the element in from the bottom, and use a SS 1" lock nut inside the HLT to tighten the element into the hole. You will use the seal that comes with the element to seal it, on the outside, not inside.

Viola... it is inserted.

Spreadsheet works great! Thank you very much. I am hoping to brew with "your" set up this weekend. I appreciate all of you help so far.

No problem, glad to help. I am ordering my PID, SSR, heatsink and RTD today from Auber.

Pol,

I started to brew a batch tonight. I love this set-up! The batch is a loss because I insulated the lids of my coolers with Great Stuff and it heated up and dripped into the HLT, but I don't care. The temp is holding perfectly at 155. The ball valve on my HLT is leaking, but I will fix both of those issues and buy more grains. I am going to continue this through the sparge, but forgo the boil. Thanks again!

DAMN!! I am so sorry to hear that... yeah, I never insulated my lids with anything... I would have never imagined that Great Stuff would MELT at these temps.

I am really pleased to hear that you are so happy with the rig that you are continuing through the mash and sparge! Did the spreadsheet work awesome for handling the HLT or what?!

#1. I am flattered that anyone would have enough confidence in my design to build one for themselves.

#2. I am excited to have someone to help through the build and useage of this brew rig.

#3. Id love to have a positive testimonial!

SUTTON,

How did the failed brew session end up?

I am building the majority of my control panel for my ELECTRIC HERMS conversion today. It is amazing how expensive these TINY parts can be...

Pol,

I have since successfully brewed a batch and it worked great! I have brewed many batches over the last few years and never heard of Great Stuff as an ingredient, so I figured I should toss that first batch. I am following along on your build and I am very impressed.

Good, glad to hear it worked out for ya on a later brew.

I will be able to get the project finished by January 1st, and get all of the details posted. It will take a lot of work... there is a lot to building even the smallest control panel.

Hope that what I do, can help out others.

Pol,

My first post in this forum, but I've been lurking for a while getting ideas on a HERMS system. I really like the simplicity of your setup but had a few questions. Also wanted to say thanks to you and all the others for posting great stuff (especially all the pics).

1. Could you walk me through the process of setting your strike water temp? I thought I understood it until I read your spreadsheet. Here's the way I understood that data. You heat up a specified amount in your HLT to +10-15 deg greater than your strike water temp. You then transfer some of this to your MLT for the dough in and then add cold water back to the HLT to get to your strike water temp in the HLT. However, the water temp is obviously too high in the MLT for dough in. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here but don't quite get the process.

2. Have you though about placing the temperature controller thermocouple in the MLT to control the electric heating element? This way you wouldn't have to figure out the temp differential btwn the HLT and MLT. The only problem I see with this is you might experience overshoot of the temperature in the MLT.

3. I noticed you put separate thermometers in the MLT and HLT. My RANCO controller I use for my kegerator gives a digital readout of the actual temp. Do you not trust the reading your temp controller gives you or do you want redundancy? Also, I was just going to use some leftover flexible copper tubing crimped at the end to hold my thermocouple instead of a SS dip tube(trying to save money). Do you see any problems with this?

4. I had some more questions about your sparge process. Does your flexible sparge arm seem to work properly for fly sparging? Do you drain down to 1" off your grain bed then start your sparge?

Thank again for posting this stuff. Can't wait to start building an automated system.

rman said:

Pol,

My first post in this forum, but I've been lurking for a while getting ideas on a HERMS system. I really like the simplicity of your setup but had a few questions. Also wanted to say thanks to you and all the others for posting great stuff (especially all the pics).

1. Could you walk me through the process of setting your strike water temp? I thought I understood it until I read your spreadsheet. Here's the way I understood that data. You heat up a specified amount in your HLT to +10-15 deg greater than your strike water temp. You then transfer some of this to your MLT for the dough in and then add cold water back to the HLT to get to your strike water temp in the HLT. However, the water temp is obviously too high in the MLT for dough in. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here but don't quite get the process.

2. Have you though about placing the temperature controller thermocouple in the MLT to control the electric heating element? This way you wouldn't have to figure out the temp differential btwn the HLT and MLT. The only problem I see with this is you might experience overshoot of the temperature in the MLT.

3. I noticed you put separate thermometers in the MLT and HLT. My RANCO controller I use for my kegerator gives a digital readout of the actual temp. Do you not trust the reading your temp controller gives you or do you want redundancy? Also, I was just going to use some leftover flexible copper tubing crimped at the end to hold my thermocouple instead of a SS dip tube(trying to save money). Do you see any problems with this?

4. I had some more questions about your sparge process. Does your flexible sparge arm seem to work properly for fly sparging? Do you drain down to 1" off your grain bed then start your sparge?

Thank again for posting this stuff. Can't wait to start building an automated system.

Click to expand...

Answer to #1. YES, the water that goes into the MLT is strike temp +10-15F. Remember, your mash tun is cold, relatively, it will soak up that extra 10-15F and leave you with a good reliable strike temp. NEVER try to strike a mash in a cold MLT.

Answer #2. Placing the HERMS temp probe anywhere near the MLT will guarantee you an overshoot. You never want to heat your wort to a temp greater than your target MLT temp, and you will if you dont control (measure)the HLT temp in the HLT. It has been tried several times by HBT members and I have read several horror stories about trying to mash this way. There is not a lot of figuring to get the differential between the HLT and MLT. I figured it out during my first brew session with my HERMS and maintained my MLT temp within .5F.

Answer #3. The temp probes were in the MLT and HLT long before I converted them to a HERMS. They are just still there. I do trust my JC A419 temp readout. Also, you can use a copper tube for the thermowell, sure.

Answer #4. I have had great success using the LOC LINE in my MLT for fly sparging. I leave about 1" above the grain bed and just run it. I needed a larger line for the HERMS return, and didnt want to have (2) returns. One for fly sparging and one for HERMS recirculating. It works well.

See my BLING BLING ELECTRIC HERMS CONVERSION thread too. Finishing up my control box now to make my BK electric as well.

The Pol said:

Answer to #1. YES, the water that goes into the MLT is strike temp +10-15F. Remember, your mash tun is cold, relatively, it will soak up that extra 10-15F and leave you with a good reliable strike temp. NEVER try to strike a mash in a cold MLT.

Answer #2. Placing the HERMS temp probe anywhere near the MLT will guarantee you an overshoot. You never want to heat your wort to a temp greater than your target MLT temp, and you will if you dont control (measure)the HLT temp in the HLT. It has been tried several times by HBT members and I have read several horror stories about trying to mash this way. There is not a lot of figuring to get the differential between the HLT and MLT. I figured it out during my first brew session with my HERMS and maintained my MLT temp within .5F.

Answer #3. The temp probes were in the MLT and HLT long before I converted them to a HERMS. They are just still there. I do trust my JC A419 temp readout. Also, you can use a copper tube for the thermowell, sure.

Answer #4. I have had great success using the LOC LINE in my MLT for fly sparging. I leave about 1" above the grain bed and just run it. I needed a larger line for the HERMS return, and didnt want to have (2) returns. One for fly sparging and one for HERMS recirculating. It works well.

See my BLING BLING ELECTRIC HERMS CONVERSION thread too. Finishing up my control box now to make my BK electric as well.

Click to expand...

I saw the BLING BLING thread as well. Awesome stuff but I'm not there yet.

Thanks for the feedback. Few more things...When you go to mashout do you shut off the pump and stop the recirc to get your HLT temp up faster than start the recirc again? Also, when you start your sparge and drain down to 1" off the bed do you have to recirculate the first runnings or are they already clear enough? I will put the temp controller in the HLT to avoid overshoot as mentioned so will get another thermometer for the MLT. Thanks again for the advice and hope you don't mind me asking the questions.

rman said:

I saw the BLING BLING thread as well. Awesome stuff but I'm not there yet.

Thanks for the feedback. Few more things...When you go to mashout do you shut off the pump and stop the recirc to get your HLT temp up faster than start the recirc again? Also, when you start your sparge and drain down to 1" off the bed do you have to recirculate the first runnings or are they already clear enough? I will put the temp controller in the HLT to avoid overshoot as mentioned so will get another thermometer for the MLT. Thanks again for the advice and hope you don't mind me asking the questions.

Click to expand...

I DO NOT shut off the pump when I perform the mash out. You will not save any time doing so. Whether you are recirculting or not, you still have to heat the HLT water and the MLT water in the end, it takes the same ammount of time.

I do not recirculate the first runnings, since during the HERMS you are recirculating your runnings. After about 20 minutes of the HERMS operating your runnings are perfectly clear, I mean, crystal... when you start to sparge and lauter the runnings are as clear as they will ever be.

I dont mind the questions, it keeps me thinking, opens me up to other ideas and isnt that what we are here for? No problem!

Thanks again Pol! I had an absolutely flawless run today and nailed my OG. I love this system!

Glad to hear it! Finished my electric BK conversion this past week. Looking to brew again in late Jan.

I am really glad that the system works as well for you as it does for me.

Hey pol had a question about the loc line. I know you use 1/2 inch for it to match the disconnects, but confused on how much, or what tip to get. (sorry never fly sparged or had experience with these connections)
I went mcmaster, but I see a lot of connections, and want to make sure to order the right stuff.

Also when you ramp up to mash out, does it matter how much time is added to get to mash out temp? Does it affect the profile or do you add it to your rest time? In my previous experience making wort I never really mashed out, so was wondering about this.

I need the spreadsheet program if you dont mind.

BTW scored my 2nd 10g homedepot cooler for 35 bucks yesterday. I dont have much more to order and the games will begin!

Pol you rock for making this easy for us!

G-E-R-M-A-N said:

Hey pol had a question about the loc line. I know you use 1/2 inch for it to match the disconnects, but confused on how much, or what tip to get. (sorry never fly sparged or had experience with these connections)
I went mcmaster, but I see a lot of connections, and want to make sure to order the right stuff.

Also when you ramp up to mash out, does it matter how much time is added to get to mash out temp? Does it affect the profile or do you add it to your rest time? In my previous experience making wort I never really mashed out, so was wondering about this.

I need the spreadsheet program if you dont mind.

BTW scored my 2nd 10g homedepot cooler for 35 bucks yesterday. I dont have much more to order and the games will begin!

Pol you rock for making this easy for us!

Click to expand...

No no, you guys rock for trusting in me and my deisgn enough to invest in it for yourselves. I used (2) lengths of LOC LINE, 2' total. I also bought the regular single nozzle ROUND tip. Nothing special.

I mash for 60 minutes, then I mash out for 15-20. That is what I do, seems to work well for me. I do a normal mash, then ADD 15-20 mins for the mashout.

Please PM me your email address and I will send you the spreadsheer for water management in the HLT.

Your software is sent!

Do you have a complete parts list compiled yet?

No, and at this point I doubt that I will. The good news is that the major components that really matter are all detailed in this thread.

Yes, I see that. I'm just not familiar with all the disconnects and connections at the top of the HLT and MT.

You should submit this to BYO, if you haven't already...

Here is my starter parts list. I am not going to guarantee it is correct, but this what I have so far. Anybody can take it and revise it also. I am also sure there are a few little parts that are left out. Also pol if you see anything wrong just let me know.

2x 10 rubbermaid coolers with valves (valves should have ½ “opening)

1x johnson controller (a419)

1x March heat resistant pump for food (needs valve or valves)

1x 25 foot copper tubing coil (with means to affix quick disconnects at ends)

1x Thermowell stopper or stopper with a crimped corny pickup tube. (for Johnson temp probe)

2x Solid stoppers with temp probes to read MLT temp and HLT temp

1x 12ov 2500w water heater element (needs separate length of wire and plug to wire up) Also needs a means to insulate bottom wires. OP used JB weld.

1x SS nut (fits top side of heater element threads and pulls heater seal upwards to seal bottom.) (not sure where to get this yet)


12 ft heat resistant tubing (1/2 ID)

6x stainless hose clamps


MC master parts (mcmaster.com)

6x #6739K59 High Flow Hose Coupling For Coolant, Plug, 1/2" Nptf Male, 3/8"

6 x #6739K64 High Flow Hose Coupling For Coolant, Sleeve-lck Sckt X
Barb, 3/8"cplg Sz,1/2"hose Id

2x 50915K328 FITTINGS TO ATTACH QDs TO HERMS COIL (1/2" Tube Od X 1/2" Nptf Male Pipe )


1x 5307K48 1/2" Npt Male Connector For 1/2" Id, Snap-loc Any-which-way Coolant Hose (TO ATTACH LOC LINE THROUGH LID OF MLT)

2x 10095K45 1’ Of 1/2" Id, Loc-line Any-which-way Coolant Hose (LOC LINE FOR MLT RETURN)

1x 10095K25 1/2" Diameter Round Nozzle For 1/2" Id, Loc-line Any-which-way Coolant Hose (NOZZLE FOR LOC LINE RETURN LINE)

3x 50785K94 Med-pressure Extruded Brass Thrd Pipe Fitting, 1/2" Pipe Size, Hex Coupling, 1-3/16" Length(1 EA to affix QDs to HERMS coil and to the MLT LID for the LOC LINE RETURN LINE)


1x 6142K49 Ac Gearmotor W/fan, Face Mnt, 100 Rpm, 7 In-lbs Torque, 115 Vac

1x 34935K66 Polypropylene Propeller With Shaft U-shaped Blade, 2-1/2" DIA.

1x 6099K22 Stainless Steel One-piece Set-screw Coupling 5/16" Bore, 1" Length, 5/8" Od, Without Keyway

Thanks, that's helpful. Real simple question: How do you connect the heat exchange coil at the top? I have an immersion chiller (that I would keep as such as I think it is 3/8" and it's 50'), but that is bent at the top to accomodate hoses at a horizontal angle, not vertical. Did you cut the coil, and how did you connect that to the tubing?