Recommendations for recipe with..

Hi,

After being so busy with work and life ive finally got round to planning to brew a decent cider, but i'm going to need some help if you could?

Managed to source this apple juice:





A guy at work whose sister works at a bottling factory was selling it off cheap because of some cock up at work, so manged to order 36 x 750ml bottles for just 15 quid! bargain!

Now i need a good recipe to put my plan into action

After searching around there are so many recipes so would like to hear from people what would get the best taste.
I don't like sweet cider nor to dry so medium dry would be ideal.
Also would like it quite strong so around 7% mark will i need to add extra sugar to achieve this or will there be enough natrual sugars in the juice to begin with?

So first thing first which yeast to use? i read champagne yeast works well?
Do i pasteurize? or not? although i'd rather not (less hassle)
As above with i need to add extra sugar?

Sorry about all the questions just i would like to get it right and get a great tasting cider.

thanks

To answer your alcohol content, you will need to get a hydrometer. As far at the yeast, that is your choice. I have used champagne yeast, Trappist yeast, and currently fermenting with a ale yeast

yeah i have a hydrometer, to date ive made one batch of cider from a shop bought kit and it tasted like crap, so this time i'm doing it right using good quality apple juice.
But as far as the yeast goes i thought the type you use depends on whether you want it dry etc?

other thing is that i only have a fermenting bucket with lid of course and a keg, i read that you dont want air in it while fermenting, is it going to be ok in the bucket?

Did mine in a bucket, came out fine. Primary fermentation lets off enough CO2 to keep out all atmospheric air. I don't think you would be doing a secondary fermentation, since you want 7% and a medium-dry cider. That's the only time I'd recommend a carboy over a bucket.

I'd use a lager or ale yeast. I'm using S-04 Safale Ale yeast now. The reason I say to not use champagne is because you are going to want to stop fermentation to preserve the original apple flavor and sweetness without backsweetening.... And champagne yeast is quite a pain to try and stop compared to lager and ale yeast. Since I'm on the topic of stopping the ferment, you have a fridge big enough to fit your entire batch in, right?

As stated before, get a hydrometer and tell us what your reading of that juice is. We'll be able to help you more once you give us that information.

That looks like some legit juice!!! I never made cider before so I can't speak to any recipes, but I watched this video a while back and thought it had a ton of killer info in it. Check it out:

CodyA said:

Did mine in a bucket, came out fine. Primary fermentation lets off enough CO2 to keep out all atmospheric air. I don't think you would be doing a secondary fermentation, since you want 7% and a medium-dry cider. That's the only time I'd recommend a carboy over a bucket.

I'd use a lager or ale yeast. I'm using S-04 Safale Ale yeast now. The reason I say to not use champagne is because you are going to want to stop fermentation to preserve the original apple flavor and sweetness without backsweetening.... And champagne yeast is quite a pain to try and stop compared to lager and ale yeast. Since I'm on the topic of stopping the ferment, you have a fridge big enough to fit your entire batch in, right?

As stated before, get a hydrometer and tell us what your reading of that juice is. We'll be able to help you more once you give us that information.

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thanks some good info there , ale yeast it is then. don't have room for whole batch to cold crash, was thinking of using campden tablets to stop fermenting?

is there a general rule of thumb as regards to how much yeast to use? oh btw I do have a hydrometer already. my bucket only holds 40 pints and I will have 47 pints worth of juice unless I can find another container suitable for the extra.

other thing I was planning on doing is reusing the bottles after ferment is finished as they are screw cap and well makes sense really. don't think I'd need to sterilize them would I as they only would have had the juice in.

Campden will not stop a fermemntation. No way. Are you force carbonating or bottle carbonating?

still cider not going to carb it. campden won't stop it ,oh damn. how cold does it need to go? gets quite chilly here in winter maybe leaving it outside? lol

That may not be a bad idea! To at least halt the fermentation. But note that just cold crashing won't kill the yeast and fermentation will re-start once you allow it to get to room temperature. But if you're goin for a still cider, I would follow the instructions on the bottle pasteurization thread (A sticky at the top of the cider forum). You will have an even easier time avoiding exploding bottles since your cider will be still.

nice one one just had a read through that sticky, good guide. So basically once i'm at correct gravity, stop or rather slow the fermenting , by means of cold crash then bottle up and pasteurize. I take it they dont all have to go in fridge once this process has been done they could just be stored away to age in a cupboard or under the stairs?

So what temp does it need to go down to to slow the ferment down enough to then bottle up ready for pasteurization?

just checked website from where i got the juice and it has been pasteurized proir to bottling, is this going to affect the method im going to be using? i.e type of yeast etc

Naw, pasteurization shouldn't affect fermentation, but according to some, it may affect taste. Not in a bad or good way, it will just taste different than it would had you used non-pasteurized juice (which is explained in another sticky on here "results from juice, sugar and yeast experiments"). As for cold crashing, the reason I'm recommending this step is not because you need to slow or stop fermentation before bottling, but because cold crashing makes all the suspended yeast and fruit solids fall and settle to the bottom. This step isn't absolutely necessary, but I would recommend it for a cleaner cider.

One other thing though. I see it says "cloudy cider". You may want to add some pectin enzyme about a 12-24 hours before pitching the yeast. Just to allow at least most of the pectins to fall out of solution. Again, this is an optional step though.

w1dow said:

nice one one just had a read through that sticky, good guide. So basically once i'm at correct gravity, stop or rather slow the fermenting , by means of cold crash then bottle up and pasteurize. I take it they dont all have to go in fridge once this process has been done they could just be stored away to age in a cupboard or under the stairs?

So what temp does it need to go down to to slow the ferment down enough to then bottle up ready for pasteurization?

just checked website from where i got the juice and it has been pasteurized proir to bottling, is this going to affect the method im going to be using? i.e type of yeast etc

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As far as getting a semi-sweet still cider, bottle pasturizing is neither the only or the easiest way to go.

I'm thinking sulfites might be best for you. But there is a thread on sweet cider that you might want to read through:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/pls-read-i-want-sweet-carbonated-cider-282841/

It shows you more options then just bottle pasturizing.

As for how cold to go during cold crashing, I’d try to keep the temperature between 39°F and 21°F. I am not sure if you can successfully cold crash much above 39°F. Most people who cold crash, do so in a refrigerator and that is a typical fridge temperature. Try to keep the temp above 21°F to avoid freezing (based upon a 7% ABV). The remaining sugars and apple bits will bump that number down a bit more, maybe 19-15°F, but I say 21°F just to be safe. A few hours below that won’t do any harm, so I’m talking about average temp. (If anyone has anything to add, or correct on this, please do so)

As for pasturizing picking the yeast, that shouldn't matter too much as far as which one you can cold crash with. Stay away from turbo yeast (probably pretty obvious) and any yeast with an alcohol tollerance lower then what you are aiming for. Other then that, take a look at the characteristic of each yeast and decide what you like best.

I have researched it a lot, and I am still sorting out what I like best. I think it really comes down to trial and error, but having an idea of the characteristic of each yeast does cut down on the guess work! I found this site helps a lot, but also check out the info sheets on each yeast on the manufacture's webpage.

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp

Good luck

Devo9 said:

As far as getting a semi-sweet still cider, bottle pasturizing is neither the only or the easiest way to go.

I'm thinking sulfites might be best for you. But there is a thread on sweet cider that you might want to read through:

Click to expand...

Maybe not the easiest or only, but it is the most effective. As stated earlier, sulfates will NOT kill a commercial yeast (they are very resistant to sulfites). I mean I guess you could just use sulfites, but you would have to use way more than the taste thresh hold. So it would impart a weird flavor in your cider.

Potassium Sorbate also will not stop fermentation either. It doesn't kill yeast, it prevents them from reproducing. So in an active fermentation, it won't have an effect.

Sounds like you want a traditional English semi-dry cider with minimal artificial additives. In that case, bottle pasteurization is your best bet.

CodyA said:

Sounds like you want a traditional English semi-dry cider with minimal artificial additives. In that case, bottle pasteurization is your best bet.

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exactly what im aiming for

at the moment temp at night don't dip much below 3-4 deg C , but it will get colder, i hope!

getting the juice this tuesday , over weekend will order my yeast and sterilize my bucket etc ready for brewing.

I don't mind having a cloudy cider not too fussed how it looks, its more about the taste for me.

alot of food for thought there, but it seems cold crashing is going to be my best option, might even see if i can borrow a fridge off someone in case its not cold enough outside.

How long would it need to cold crash, overnight be long enough? is there any way to tell when its actually crashed so to speak?

w1dow said:

exactly what im aiming for

How long would it need to cold crash, overnight be long enough? is there any way to tell when its actually crashed so to speak?

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I'd crash in the primary overnight, rack into a secondary, and crash one more night. For my liking of a clear cider, I'd leave the secondary in cold storage for another 3-4 days (not to mention one more racking and a few more days), but since you don't mind a cloudy cider, just another night would do. You will see it clear up quite a bit after the first crash, then a little more after the second crash. One might do just fine, but 2 makes sure all the suspended yeast sink to the bottom... And as you probably already know, too much suspended yeast not only looks a little strange, but can make your cider taste a little "yeasty" as well.

so what your saying is rack into a secondary before bottling? suppose i could put into my keg as secondary before bottling if thats what you mean, but as you say not necessary.

I just checked the OG and its at around 1.058 so no extra sugar needed then.
If i'm correct and take the FG to 0.990 the abv will be around 8.9% so maybe take it down to around 1.000? so its not quite as strong athough if i were to take it down that much it would be very dry, wouldnt it?

now i'm thinking maybe 1.058 down to 1.010 ? which when using abv calculator gives me a final abv of 7.3% which i assume would be medium-dry?

Just had a thought though, i checked the OG of cold juice, which will give a different reading right? as to if it were warmer?

So i'm just now looking at the yeast to buy Safale S-04, English Ale Yeast , 11.5g sachet which says does 5 gallon (UK) when i'm doing 5.5 gallons ,less or more that is the question.. best get 2 just in case.

Yea, I would definitely check the cider at room temp. And you dont really HAVE to do a secondary crash, I'm just kind of anal about clearing my cider as much as possible. Mine was at 1.057 and I dried it out to 1.002, giving me an abv of 7.2% (went a little further than I wanted, but it still retained a lot of apple flavor). Not going for a syrupy-sweet cider, but I do want sweet/tart cider (which is why I used so many winesap apples). So I'm going to backsweeten with a can of frozen apple juice concentrate from the grocery store, maybe a cup of light brown sugar, and half a gallon of store bought apple juice to bring down the abv a bit.

Though bringing my cider down to 1.002 still retained the apple flavor, it was much too dry for my liking. I mean dryer than any English cider i have ever had, but still not quite a "white wine" dry. I would taste it at about 1.010 and see how you like it. If it's still too sweet, you can always still dry it uot a bit more before exposing to the cold.

yeah think I will do just that ,see what it's like at 1.010 , I can't stand sweet cider.

when making your primer would you just use say 1 ltr of juice ,add spoon of sugar then add yeast and leave over night before adding to main batch?

w1dow said:

yeah think I will do just that ,see what it's like at 1.010 , I can't stand sweet cider.

when making your primer would you just use say 1 ltr of juice ,add spoon of sugar then add yeast and leave over night before adding to main batch?

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I'd say like 16 oz (500ml I think). A whole liter isn't necessary. And neither is the sugar. Do you have yeast nutrient?

no I don't have any nutrient

w1dow said:

no I don't have any nutrient

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If you have no nutrient you can make some using boiled bread yeast....I would have to go search for instruction. Some use for nutrient, some for energizer. Though many will not add it once past the 2/3 sugar depletion. A ground up B vitamin may help feed the yeast.

going to look for nutrient now, add to order with my yeast but thanks anyway

bugger can't add to my order, be damned if i'm paying 2.60 for something that costs a pound. Might a store i can get from near me, will look tomorrow.

after searching around about making your own i see some people use raisins as a nutrient?

Can't tell you about using rasins, as I have never had any experience with it. But Nutrient will likely save your cider in fermentation from the well know "rhino farts". Happened to my cider. Good thing I caught it early, because after 2-3 days of fermenting I had a bad sulfur smell. Added a tablespoon of dissolved nutrient to my 5 gallon batch and POOF! Cured the sulfur smell over night. Make sure to use nutrient though and not "energizer".

going to shop today and hopefully get some, ready for tues/Wed when I start brewing

managed to get some nutrient today and also picked up some pectolase, so think I'm all set now for my delivery on Tuesday.

so plan is to have 25ltrs of juice Tuesday in bucket less half a ltr for my primer.
check OG at room temp.
add some pectolase leave overnight. and at the same time get my primer ready.
Wednesday evening ,add primer and nutrient.
once fermenting has started check weekly for gravity until at desired level , 1.010 taste test, if to my liking will cold crash for 24 hrs, transfer into 2nd container then cold crash for 48 hrs.
then bottle up and start to pasteurize. put some in fridge rest in the shed where it's cold.
anything I missed?

Pectolase... This is pectic enzyme I assume?

Sound's like you're golden! Just make sure that shed doesn't get above 50 degrees Fahrenheit (Don't know what that would be Celsius.... I'm in the American southwest, so the metric system always messes me up!) or fermentation may start again.

yes that is pectic enzyme . so even after 2 cold crashes and pasteurization, fermentation could still restart?

50 f is about 10 c , our average daytime temp currently don't get much above 7c and it's only set to get colder.

No no, I'm talking about during the cold crash make sure it doesn't get above 50 F. After pasteurization, It's not going to start back up.

ahh right lol I did wonder. might be able to fit the bucket in our fridge after taking a few shelfs out just to be sure it's kept cold enough.
get my delivery of juice tomorrow

how long do you think it will need fermenting? or is it a case of 'how long is a piece of string' be nice if it was ready for xmas,but don't matter if it's not.

Started mine on the 8th, crashed it the 13th, racked the 14th, racked again the 16th, and keg-pasteurized today. Got it hot enough to where I couldn't keep my hand on the outside of the keg for more than 5 seconds, so I'm guessing like 115-120 for 20 minutes (was really worried about evaporating off all the alcohol). Should be good, considering every time I pitch yeast into a wort that's hotter than 100 degrees, I always end up killing all the yeast and having to repitch.

Yours is not going to be a sweet cider like mine though, so as far as aging to mellow the flavor, I couldn't tell ya. But tasting mine at 1.002, it reminded me of some organic English cider my buddy bought one day. So definitely palatable at least with no aging.

5 days then to ferment quicker than i would have thought. So i take it you would check the gravity daily?

The boiling point of alcohol is like around 170f i think, so your way off that, so wouldnt burn any alcohol off.

My juice delivery has been delayed until tomorrow although can't do nowt without the yeast.. good old royal mail, bloody useless they are, estimated delivery is 2-5 days hopefully get by end of the week.

there was 96 bottles sitting on the floor..... god this is going to take a while, didn't get what I wanted ,ended up with 96 small bottles instead of 36 large..

ok so all bottles emptied into bucket, added a spoon of pectin enzyme will add another spoon when started to ferment.

As far as priming the yeast would i be right in saying you only need to add a few spoons to the 1/2 litre of juice?
And once its primed add it to main batch in bucket along with rest of yeast then leave for 24hrs before adding the nutrient? Or just add it all at the same time.

All at the same time would be fine. The only thing that needs to be left to do its work before fermentation starts would be your enzyme.

btw thanks for your help so far you have been a great help

So only adding a small amount of yeast as a starter is correct? just i thought if i were to add it all, i thought maybe it might all foam up and over out of the jug lol.

forgot how heavy 25 ltrs of fluid weighs , god i hope it dont break out fridge when i get to that point, or the mrs will kill me along with my wallet!

Just interested to know would you cold crash in the fermenting bucket, then rack, cold crash again, then bottle?

w1dow said:

Just interested to know would you cold crash in the fermenting bucket, then rack, cold crash again, then bottle?

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Yes.

And no problem! I'm learning here to.

Add the whole yeast sachet into the liter of juice. As long as the container you are making your starter in is roughly twice the size of your half liter or larger, you wont get any foam over problems. Especially with apple juice. Not like beer where you get a lot of foam.

Be careful with glass trays in the fridge. 6 gallons of IPA with only a 15 inch foot print on a glass tray was definitely too heavy and put too much pressure on the glass. Learned it the hard way, good thing it was in a fridge that was going to get tossed by my buddy anyway had I not saved it.

EDIT: Add the sachet into the HALF liter of juice.

CodyA said:

Be careful with glass trays in the fridge. 6 gallons of IPA with only a 15 inch foot print on a glass tray was definitely too heavy and put too much pressure on the glass. Learned it the hard way, good thing it was in a fridge that was going to get tossed by my buddy anyway had I not saved it.

EDIT: Add the sachet into the HALF liter of juice.

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yeah wouldnt have trusted it on the glass anyway. Its a fridge/freezer so it will be sat on the bottom of the fridge, tested just now and its fine, just about fits! probably take out the bottom door tray though as i have to push bucket right to the back of the fridge partly blocking the air outlet cooler fan.

Just taken another OG and currently sits at 1.054 @ 17c / 62.6f will check again tomorrow when its at correct room temperature.

so i want a cider with a bit of a kick and not too dry so i'm thinking maybe take down to 1.000 which would give a abv of 8% and hopefully wont be too dry like white wine, but since i'm a white wine drinker that probably wouldnt bother me too much or the mrs.

You will probably like it at 1.000. Mine was at 1.002, and it was very pallatable and tasty. A TINY bit wine like, but not bad, and still very apple-y. I just wanted a sweet cider with just a small tart kick. At 1.002, mine was at 7.5% ABV

if OG on mine is 1.058 and i take down to a FG of 1.000 it will be about 8.6% so quite a bit of a kick, so maybe 1.002 - 1.005 would be better, will taste test when it gets near to that level see what the taste buds think!