BCS-460, is it worth it?

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I've looked at it lustfully many times. But I just can't picture me controlling my gear with a computer. I am a techy nerd type, but this is one place I don't want the PC. I brew outside, too, so it is not a good fit for me.

I reserve the right to change my mind someday (like tomorrow).
 
I'm with passedpawn on this one. I've considered a dedicated computer for my rig - industrial type... but don't like the thought of needing an IP stack where I brew. I'm leaning more toward the brewtroller. Occasionally I brew away from home and don't want to deal with setting up the network for the BCS-460.

I also reserve the right to change my mind :mug:

It does look really cool.
 
I love it...

Is it worth it? If you are OK with controlling your brew rig with your computer and have an internet connection available... YES. You cannot get the BCS functionality anwhere else, for less...

Here is my control box, this is all there is to the control side of my rig.
P1030937.jpg


It allows for a very clean interface... you see nothing.
P1030940.jpg


No control panel, no switches, no PIDs, nothing... just a 12" x 12" box
 
I love it...

Is it worth it? If you are OK with controlling your brew rig with your computer and have an internet connection available... YES. You cannot get the BCS functionality anwhere else, for less...

Here is my control box, this is all there is to the control side of my rig.

It allows for a very clean interface... you see nothing.

No control panel, no switches, no PIDs, nothing... just a 12" x 12" box

That is clean. There's even wireless power to your electric pot and wireless motors. :)

That's a fine rig willy. Really.
 
I am in the process of building a BCS controlled all electric rig.
My BCS is configured to run wirelessly, but unlike Willy, I also have a control panel.
I have manual override switches for each element and pump. I also have an E-stop (big red button) on the panel.

My thought progression has been; I started with a regular glass thermometer then wanted something easer to read... Went to digital thermometers, then wanted to be able to react to the temps... Went to PID's, then wanted them to interact and be able to log data. I was back and forth between the BCS and the Brewtroller. My plan was to purchase each and learn to use them before building one into my rig. At the time, I had problems locating all the components needed to put the Brewtroller together, so never got one ordered.

The BCS is less challenging to implement technically, but probably a little less flexible than the Brewtroller.

So is it worth it... depends on what you are comparing it to and what features you need. It has 4 build in PIDs, which alone is probably worth the $187 price. But if you only ever see yourself needing one PID, then it may be overkill for your application.

Ed
 
I love my BCS, opens Asco valves, turns pumps on and off, runs the RIMS heat exchanger, its almost limitless what you can do in terms of adding expansion modules, custom interface work, etc.
 
:ban::ban::ban:

It is a great tool; for electric brewing I think it makes the most sense economically. Additionally, I use it to control my two ferm chambers and my kegerator, and each ferm chamber can heat and cool.

The thing that is nice about it is that you can use it in a very simple control part of your brew, or you can use it to get to a fully automated brew.

Oh, and an internet connection is not needed, but a computer is. You can connect using cat-5 ethernet cable between the BCS-460 and your computer (although having the capability to use it on your network or set up wirelessly is very nice).

I try and have as much of my equipment be multi-use, so my dollar goes farther. The BCS-460 is one such piece of equipment.
 
***********1. Enforce rules only against their foes (i.e., anyone who does not suck up to them) while exempting their friends from similar or worse behavior.

2. Silently boot someone and then proceed to trash talk the person as if the person was still there with an opportunity to respond.

3. Boot someone and then start a thread for the sole purpose of boasting about having removed the person, so as to bask in the praise of sychophantic members applauding the moderator's bold action.

4. If a person is being stalked or trolled, scold, warn and threaten both the victim and the perpetrator to stop it. If the victim protests, boot the victim for having defied the moderator's authority. Add injury to insult by allowing the troll or stalker to stay because the stalker or troll didn't talk back to the moderator.

5. If the moderator loses an argument to another member, selectively delete the member's comments so that the thread no longer makes any sense.

6. Selectively enforce the tribe's rules only against newcomers, newbies or people who are not friend with the moderator.

7. Speak about their actions as moderator in the passive voice, use the royal we, and otherwise take on a haughty, authoritarian tone. I mean, dude, you're just a moderator. ***************
 
I may go that route. I may also use a set of PIDs.
While I like the idea of the BCS system I also like the idea of having immediate manual control. SO I keep going back and forth. I haven't figured a way to do both with out a series of unplugged connections. Not that that's a bad idea. Get the Amplifier jacks http://www.harmony-central.com/ProductImages/Large/000007706.jpg
Or use a rotary selection switch for each control http://www.wholesaletrains.com/detail.asp?ID=200498687
I dunno.

Not sure what you mean by "immediate manual control"?

I bet I can turn an element or pump on or off quicker from the BCS control screen than you can in a PID. To switch from PID control to manual control on a PID, you have to go through the PID menus (and remember the abbreviations and codes).

On the BCS, you click the button to stop the running process, then click the button to turn on or off any of the controlled outputs.

There is about a 1-2 second delay when changing settings in the BCS from the Control Screen but I think that is still faster than futzing with a PID menu?

Is that what you mean by "immediate manual control"?
 
Cliff means having a physical switch to turn something off, instead of getting on the PC to do it. He has a point, but it all depends on what your priorities are.

A physical switch is as fast as using the BCS, some people just prefer to have a manual switch.

My priority was just to have no physical switches or a panel. Make it look really clean and really simplistic, when in reality it really isnt simplistic at all.
 
Cliff means having a physical switch to turn something off, instead of getting on the PC to do it. He has a point, but it all depends on what your priorities are.

A physical switch is as fast as using the BCS, some people just prefer to have a manual switch.

My priority was just to have no physical switches or a panel. Make it look really clean and really simplistic, when in reality it really isnt simplistic at all.

I still don't understand how using PIDs would make it easier to have manual control?

I built a control panel and have physical switches AND "Auto Mode" to allow BCS control. I can have my my Laptop wirelessly connected to the BCS 100 feet away and manually control the process. Or I can turn on or off any element or pump with a switch while standing at the rig regardless of what the BCS is calling for.

But I still don't see how it would have been simpler had I used PIDs?
 
He said, have immediate manual control...

You are assuming he means through the PID.

I am taking it as switches to turn things ON/OFF as a form of manual control, I am not assuming that he is referring to PID only functions
 
As Ohio-Ed states, using the BCS-460 does not preclude the ability for a physical manual switch(es).

It is as simple as having a double throw switch wired in.
 
He said, have immediate manual control...

You are assuming he means through the PID.

I am taking it as switches to turn things ON/OFF as a form of manual control, I am not assuming that he is referring to PID only functions

What is the point you are trying to make?

The thread is titled "BCS-460, is it worth it"...
Cliff said he is thinking about the BCS or maybe PID's...
He also said he is interested in Immediate Manual Control...

Based on the context of this thread, I assume he is talking about manual control in conjunction with a BCS or PID's.

My point is that manual control though the BCS is probably faster/easier than a PID AND manual control via override switches is very similar (no advantage of PID over BCS)

Ed
 
My point was, that maybe he is inferring that he would like manual switches and prefers manual controls for pumps, elements etc.

Immediate Manual Control

Instead of going through another device

I have built and owned both systems, and I admit that part of me prefers to have manual switches for manual control, instead of going through the PC.

This thread doesnt have to get testy...
 
My point was, that maybe he is inferring that he would like manual switches and prefers manual controls for pumps, elements etc.

Immediate Manual Control

Instead of going through another device

I have built and owned both systems, and I admit that part of me prefers to have manual switches for manual control, instead of going through the PC.

This thread doesnt have to get testy...

Are you suggesting this thread is getting "testy"?

I'm trying to answer the OP's question and another member that appeared to have a question.

You keep posting with assumptions of what Cliff may have known/intended and I have tried to respond to your assumptions.

How is that getting "testy"?

If YOU have a question, why don't you ask it and let Cliff respond if he has any?
 
Sorry to threadjack......If anyone in the Columbus, Ohio area has a BCS-460, I would love to see it in action. I am almost done with my Brutus and just want to see the BCS at work.
 
Not true. There is a A/M button on the ubiquitous Auber PIDs. Auto/Manual. There is an LED that indicates which mode you are in, also.

I stand corrected, thank you for the clarification. It's been awhile since I used my Auber PID. But if I remember correctly (and I may not), when you switch to manual mode, it assumes the same state it was in in the Automatic mode... So Pushing the A/M button gets you to manual, but the element/pump is still on? You then have to adjust the "level" with the down arrow.

Really, my point was that a PID, doesn't give you anymore "immediate manual control" than the BCS.
 
Not sure what you mean by "immediate manual control"?
While standing in front of the brew station

I bet I can turn an element or pump on or off quicker from the BCS control screen than you can in a PID.

I bet you can too.

However, my Computer is in a far distant corner of my huge old buildin from where my brewing station will be located placing the BCS a long way off in a stone walled room built with stones that have substantial iron in them. I've had issues with several wireless phones. The Panasonic 1.9GHz does pretty well though. I have no idea how a wireless router will perform

I have not contemplated adding a computer to the brewing station, though a cheap laptop might be the better approach. The idea of running around a few corners, through a couple rooms, up a couple flights of stairs, to my office where my PC is, and waking my PC up to tweak the controls is my idea of not having immediate manual control.
 
This looks like something that will really work out for me, as I build an automated system. A year and a half ago, I picked up a pallet of industrial computers from a salvage company. I sold a bunch of them and made my money back, but kept quite a few. Right now, I have one mounted on my three tier system running Beersmith and Multi timer. It is nice since they are waterproof and a touch screen.

Here is a pic of it:

citadel.jpg


and the brochure on it:

http://www.citadelcomputer.com/pdf/vista-12xl.pdf

On the network thing, you have a few options. Wireless can be run in 'ad-hoc' mode, where they just communicate with each other. Another option, if they are a bit apart, is powerline ethernet. I use that in my house to link up from my downstairs, up to the office. I have had good luck with them.

Anyone actually used one of these things that can tell us the good, bad, and ugly of them?

Jim Olsen
 
Check out an Asus netbook, small, cheap and handy. That or look at small form factor computers. I might even be able to sell you one super cheap, we use them at work.
 
While standing in front of the brew station



I bet you can too.

However, my Computer is in a far distant corner of my huge old buildin from where my brewing station will be located placing the BCS a long way off in a stone walled room built with stones that have substantial iron in them. I've had issues with several wireless phones. The Panasonic 1.9GHz does pretty well though. I have no idea how a wireless router will perform

I have not contemplated adding a computer to the brewing station, though a cheap laptop might be the better approach. The idea of running around a few corners, through a couple rooms, up a couple flights of stairs, to my office where my PC is, and waking my PC up to tweak the controls is my idea of not having immediate manual control.

That makes perfect sense.

The BCS does not require a PC attached to run a brew process, but without one you are really running "lights out". It will process all the steps, you just won't have any idea what the heck it's doing.

My opinion is that brewing with a BCS involves a PC in the vicinity of the brew rig. I keep my laptop far enough away to be safe from splashes, but close enough that I can see the Gages and tweak the process as needed. I have hard switches on my rig to turn things on and off, but really just intended for cleaning, random use, and emergencies.

If you decide to add a PC to the mix, the BCS does not have to be wireless. You can run a cable from the PC to the BCS. Also, the PC does not need to be attached to the internet to interact with the BCS.

BTW... I didn't mean it as a challenge that I could turn off an element quicker than you can... just meant to say that in my opinion, interacting with the BCS is no more difficult than a PID. ;)
 
Anyone actually used one of these things that can tell us the good, bad, and ugly of them?

Jim Olsen

Just in this thread alone Ohio-Ed and myself are using them (I have been using mine for more than 6 months) and are big believers in it.

Like I said, it is priced great, and can be used as simply or complicated as you like.

And the big thing for me, is that it is a multi-use tool in my arsenal, i.e. it does not sit unused when not brewing. It controls heating and cooling in two fermentation chambers, and maintains temps in my kegerator.

It is money well spent.

If you are going towards any sort of electronic temperature control and/or brew control, I think the BCS-460 cannot be beat by love/ranco controllers or pid's.

That said, the brewtroller is in the same league as the BCS-460, but the approach is a little different.

To me, the BCS-460 is the best out of the box, ready to use option that is currently out there.

:mug:
 
Anyone actually used one of these things that can tell us the good, bad, and ugly of them?

Jim Olsen

If you are talking about the BCS... I have one.

I'm still getting my feet on the ground with implementing it.

I think, I have brewed 5 batches since having it... a couple with it just moitoring temps, a couple with it monitoring temps and controlling my RIMs heater, and the last brew it controlled the HLT, RIM's, BK and 2 march pumps (in manual mode).

I'm still tweaking my process and equipment so I haven't really tried to program the BCS with automated processes yet.

I don't consider myself an expert, but like what I see so far.
 
I'm looking into the BCS route, but are more automated tasks like automatically filling the HLT or using pressure sensors to measure the water level possible with the BCS? I have seen this more on the brewtroller side through their forums, but it has not been discussed as much on the BCS side.
 
I've been after pressure sensors for 'digital sight gauges' for some time, add a few solenoid valves and you can automate almost everything short of milling the grain.
 
It will process all the steps, you just won't have any idea what the heck it's doing.

I am really curious about this.

So lets say you are using the BCS to control a fermentation chamber (chest freezer). If the PC is turned off, does the BCS hardware still maintain control over the freezer?

I asked this question once, and I think I got bad info (or I didn't understand the response). I think I was told that the PC was required to do this. I.e., if the PC was disconnected, the freezer would remain permanently on (or off) until the PC was again connected.

Thanks in advance for clearing this up.
 
I am really curious about this.

So lets say you are using the BCS to control a fermentation chamber (chest freezer). If the PC is turned off, does the BCS hardware still maintain control over the freezer?

I asked this question once, and I think I got bad info (or I didn't understand the response). I think I was told that the PC was required to do this. I.e., if the PC was disconnected, the freezer would remain permanently on (or off) until the PC was again connected.

Thanks in advance for clearing this up.

Once the processes are started, you no longer need the PC to be connected (you can pull the network cable). The processes will continue to monitor the inputs, obey the timers and adjust the outputs as programmed.

Right now, I have my BCS in my shop powered on... It is basically just sitting there monitoring the temp inside the shop. I have it set to take a data sample every 5 minutes (4000 sample max), so I can look at the log and see what the temp has been for the past 300+ hours.
 
I'm looking into the BCS route, but are more automated tasks like automatically filling the HLT or using pressure sensors to measure the water level possible with the BCS? I have seen this more on the brewtroller side through their forums, but it has not been discussed as much on the BCS side.

The BCS uses +5vdc to control devices. The basic unit can control 6 devices (you can add an expansion board if needed). So, with the use of proper devices or relays, etc, you have pretty much flexibility.

The system also has 4 temperature inputs... meaning based on any of those 4 probes, you can program the unit to act on any output device.

The basic system also has 4 "electrical" inputs and 4 "web based" buttons, that can be part of the mix. The "electrical" inputs can be things like switches and sensors (they have to be properly configured). The "Web" buttons are simulated buttons on your screen you can program around.
 
Once the processes are started, you no longer need the PC to be connected (you can pull the network cable). The processes will continue to monitor the inputs, obey the timers and adjust the outputs as programmed.

Right now, I have my BCS in my shop powered on... It is basically just sitting there monitoring the temp inside the shop. I have it set to take a data sample every 5 minutes (4000 sample max), so I can look at the log and see what the temp has been for the past 300+ hours.

I've looked at it lustfully many times. But I just can't picture me controlling my gear with a computer. I am a techy nerd type, but this is one place I don't want the PC. I brew outside, too, so it is not a good fit for me.

I reserve the right to change my mind someday (like tomorrow).

That lusty feeling is coming back again. Go away, go away. When will this obsession end.
 
I've been after pressure sensors for 'digital sight gauges' for some time, add a few solenoid valves and you can automate almost everything short of milling the grain.

Use pressure sensors. All you need is a 5 VDC source and a good analog to digital to digital converter and a aquarium pump.
 
Use pressure sensors. All you need is a 5 VDC source and a good analog to digital to digital converter and a aquarium pump.

I have really stayed away from thinking about automating the fluid flows... Aren't pressure sensors kinda spendy?

Got any on-line sources for reasonably priced ones?

Ed
 
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