20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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edecambra said:
So that article says that a variety of amino acids are necessary for the flavors. What about using the food type amino acids from whole foods or something

AFAIK, it just needs a source of nitrogen for the maillard reaction.
 
Here's more current work being done on candi syrup at home.

that article seems to say that only burnt sugar flavors are possible unless you do it their way. funny.. never got burnt sugar flavors following the instructions in the OP.. the article also gives references to time. but what about temps? if you have no temp control then yes you will burn the sugars quickly.

as always, there are more than one way of accomplishing the same goal. for me DAP and temp control as described in the OP works for me, this might work for you but for the article to say they're the only right way is laughable
 
Hello I am not sure on what kind of sugar to use for this candi syrup? Corn sugar I using for priming or just regular store bought white sugar

Thanks
 
Hello I am not sure on what kind of sugar to use for this candi syrup? Corn sugar I using for priming or just regular store bought white sugar

Thanks


traditionally beet sugar is used to produce candi sugar and candi syrup is the by product of candi sugar production. For making it at home and following the directions given here, plain store bought sugar will work. Unless the package says Cane Sugar then chances are good that it's beet sugar.
 
A word to the wise for those of you living at altitude: Decrease all of the temperature 1 deg F for every 500ft in altitude. I live at 5000ft and my first attempt at deep amber came out way dark and the syrup was thicker than molasses. I found out you need to adjust candy temperatures when you live at altitude, so I knocked down my terminal and soft ball temps by 10 degrees. The next batch was right on the money.
 
rshortt said:
Hey everyone. A month or so ago I made a couple pounds of sugar #5 and it turned out really, really well. I was very happy with the complexity of flavour.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nspeppers/8175844399/
Candi Syrup Starting to Boil by Hot Pepper Daddy, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nspeppers/8175849399/
Candi Syrup Almost Done by Hot Pepper Daddy, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nspeppers/8175884950/
Nice Colour by Hot Pepper Daddy, on Flickr

I then brewed my first Dubbel (included 800g, almost 2 lbs), which is now on tap. I'm very happy with this brew!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nspeppers/8256562949/
Abbey Dubbel by Hot Pepper Daddy, on Flickr

I'm making another 4 lbs of this today. Thanks for all thr work on this everyone!

I am thinking about doing a double with sugar 5 and just pilsner malt. What do you think about the srm of sugar 5 is it dark enough
 
My homebrew store sells LD Carlson brand Yeast Nutrient which says it contains food grade urea and Ammonium phosphate. Is the the same as DAP??? Can i use this yeast nutrient to make the candi sugar?
 
Ok I went ahead and tried to make this syrup with the LD Carlson yeast Nutrient. I followed the OP instructions exactly. I live at 6288 feet above sea level so I used the high altatude instructions and cooked too 240 degrees. I got syrup but no color. I ended up cooking to 250 degrees and still just a slight bit of color. I cooled the syrup and it basically hardened to a chewy consistancy. It was not liquid any longer but thick. Im going to buy the DAP and try again as that is the only thing that I can think of that changed my attempt.
 
I am thinking about doing a double with sugar 5 and just pilsner malt. What do you think about the srm of sugar 5 is it dark enough

I wish I could judge the SRM but this stuff is really, really dark. I think my last batch was darker.
 
Just made 2lbs. of #5. That was pretty easy. My son tasted it and he said it tasted like berries. :mug:
Got a Belgian dark strong ale coming up next weekend. I'll see if it stays in a syrup liquid state after it cools.
 
that article seems to say that only burnt sugar flavors are possible unless you do it their way. funny.. never got burnt sugar flavors following the instructions in the OP.. the article also gives references to time. but what about temps? if you have no temp control then yes you will burn the sugars quickly.

as always, there are more than one way of accomplishing the same goal. for me DAP and temp control as described in the OP works for me, this might work for you but for the article to say they're the only right way is laughable

The only things that that Ryan's blog really adds is the addition of lime to the equation; and confirms that adding acid only (like cream of tarter) creates burnt sugar flavors (candy apple).

I have been following the procedure outlined on the first page of this thread for several batches now but with a small addition of lime + the outlined addition of DAP and have found that my results have been better.
 
The only things that that Ryan's blog really adds is the addition of lime to the equation; and confirms that adding acid only (like cream of tarter) creates burnt sugar flavors (candy apple).

I have been following the procedure outlined on the first page of this thread for several batches now but with a small addition of lime + the outlined addition of DAP and have found that my results have been better.

How much lime are you using per batch? On Ryan's blog he states that the lime additions most likely won't scale linearly. I also wondered the same thing about DAP additions. I would like to make 10 pounds of the deep amber syrup. Any suggestions on amounts of DAP and lime for this amount of sugar?

Or anyone with negative results from using lime?

I made 10 pounds of dark candied syrup a few years ago and scaled DAP linearly with the original recipe on this thread. The ammonium was overwhelming. I had to open doors and windows of the apartment and ended up shooting way over the target temp. Ended up turning out really good though and made some great beers with it. My batch lasted over a year and no apparent change in flavor over time.
 
Well I made a batch last night. Here's my notes:

Belgian Candied Syrup
Deep Amber (290F)
10# Sugar
5 cups water
10 tsp DAP

1. Mix sugar and water
2. Add DAP around 210F
3. Heat to 250F on high heat
4. Turn heat down a bit so you can slowly build up to target temp
5. Heat to 290F and remove from heat
6. Slowly add water until temp drops to 210-220F
7. Reheat to 237-240F then allow to cool (This will evaporate enough water to create a consistent syrup and avoid crystallization when cooled)
8. Transfer to a sanitized preheated mason jar

Notes:
• Syrup weighs 12# 4oz
• Heated to 295F because 290F didn’t seem dark enough. Even after removed from heat the syrup with continue to darken until cooled. 295F target temp is a little darker than I wanted. Try 285-290F next time.
• Could not find lime at the grocery store. Order online before making next batch.
• Use 12.5 tsp DAP next time, did not have as strong ammonium aroma as the last batch. It was strong but not overpowering.

BCS.jpg
 
csamson, what size pot did you use and were there any issues with with cooking that much sugar?

I used a 7.5 gallon turkey fryer that I used to do my 5 gallon boils in. Probably didn't need a pot that deep. I used a 5 gallon pot the first time and came close to boiling over. However, I know my temps were too high the first time now so I think you could get away with using a 5 gallon pot.

I didn't have any issues with the amount of sugar other than it took longer to get to target temp. You could probably make 20# in a turkey fryer and be fine if you really wanted.
 
How much time does it take to make a 1 Qt. Batch of the sugar #4's? I was thinking of taking a crack at it but wanted to know how much time to alot.
 
How much time does it take to make a 1 Qt. Batch of the sugar #4's? I was thinking of taking a crack at it but wanted to know how much time to alot.

1 qt. is around two pounds. Should take about an hour.
It takes a while for the water to evaporate out of the sugar.
 
Does anybody know what temperature would give you an srm equall to D-45 syrup and D-90 syrup. Want to make 10 gallon Rochefort 10 clone and I dont want to spend 50 dollars on sugar
 
Got to be a great addition to the Stout I have been mulling around.
Your work is my gain. In an hour we can add a deep carmel plum profile to our wort.
I have read where people actually add the commercial product directly to the ferment stage. Anyone have any experience doing that? I am a little concerned about contamination.
Thank You Very Much!
 
Got to be a great addition to the Stout I have been mulling around.
Your work is my gain. In an hour we can add a deep carmel plum profile to our wort.
I have read where people actually add the commercial product directly to the ferment stage. Anyone have any experience doing that? I am a little concerned about contamination.
Thank You Very Much!

I've done that quite a few times using these recipes on Belgian beers. I generally wait until a few days into fermentation once it starts to slow and add it then, and I haven't had any contamination problems. I figure we're heating it up high enough to kill anything, and I'm adding it right after it cools down to around 90-100 degrees. You should be good to go!
 
I've had success with the following that closely approximates Belgian D-2 that I bought at MLHBS. It is a slight modification of sugar #5 with an inversion step based on another web page (sorry I don't have the link):

2 lbs sugar + 1 cup water stir to mix
Heat to boiling, add 1 tsp lemon juice and boil 30 min at 212-220 f by adding water occasionally to control temp.
Add 1 tsp sodium bicarbonate and 3 tsp DAP, do not stir
Over low heat allow to reach 290 then carefully add 1 cup water. Allow to reach 270 then add 1 cup water. Take off heat when it reaches 230

The recipe called for potassium bicarbonate but I didn't have any. The small amount of sodium in the baking soda does not appear to have resulted in a strange flavor. Hopefully it will not affect the beer.

The taste is pretty close to D-2 with only a slight hint of added bitterness as an aftertaste. I got impatient and put the heat up to about half intensity which may have contributed to this difference.
 
SnickASaurusRex, thanks for the awesome recipe and detailed info. I just ordered some DAP from AHS (free shipping this weekend on orders of $49 or more) and will be making it soon. What do you think about doing this in an oven set to 290? I don't have a candy thermometer but obviously the syrup won't exceed the temp of the oven and since you don't need to do a lot of stirring, it seems it wouldn't have to done on the stove.
 
Sorry if this has been asked before.

How might high altitude effect the additions and temps of this recipe?
My water boils arounds 204 because I'm at about 4700-4800ft.

I've actually made this syrup before and used it successfully but I had to basically go totally off of color of syrup not temp and that worked. Also I could not for the life of me get it to stay in syrup form. I have a feeling this might be one of the areas that is effected by altitude. Perhaps I needed more water or needed to heat the solution less at that point.

Any other high altitude people out there have any tips?

Thanks
 
Oh and I definitely hit my temps right I have a thermopen that I was using. I followed the directions exactly.
 
Sorry if this has been asked before.

How might high altitude effect the additions and temps of this recipe?
My water boils arounds 204 because I'm at about 4700-4800ft.

I've actually made this syrup before and used it successfully but I had to basically go totally off of color of syrup not temp and that worked. Also I could not for the life of me get it to stay in syrup form. I have a feeling this might be one of the areas that is effected by altitude. Perhaps I needed more water or needed to heat the solution less at that point.

Any other high altitude people out there have any tips?

Thanks

I had great success at 1000 ft but now I'm at 7500! I'd love some feedback on adjustments from any altitude brewers as well.
 
Haven't read through the entire thread however I thought I should tell people about my experience in case it can help anyone :)

I used crosby and bakers yeast energizer since my LHBS didn't have pure DAP. I talked to one of the guys and he said that it was about 90% DAP when he looked it up so I figured I would shoot for just a little higher. I also read in here that the Malliard reaction didn't start until after 240ish. So my recipe is as follows:

4 lbs sugar (full bag, regular white beet sugar)
2 cups water
heat to 230, add 2 tsp yeast nutrient.
(it took a long time to come above 230-260 on a gas stove with a smallish flame)
It was taking forever to get up to 290 where I planned to stop it, I went away from the stove for about 5 min and it shot up to 320. I said 'ohh crap' and put two cups water in it.

At this point it was a amber color and had no burnt (or toasty) taste to it, but did have a very 'toasty' smell. I checked the temp and apparently my candy thermometer was about 10-20 degrees higher then it should be, so it probably only got up to 300ish. I added about 2 cups very slowly after I turned off the burner. When it got down to about 240 I added 1/2 tsp of the nutrient and heated it up to 280. It took forever to get past 260 then moved pretty quickly. It darkened a LOT on the second warm up, and developed a LOT more complexity. after it hit 280 I added another 1.5 cups water and turned off the heat.

All said and done it tastes a lot like the D2 Candi syrup I bought for my last beer. I didn't have them right next to each other however my syrup seemed to have more layers of flavor and stronger/sweeter overall taste. The first time I tasted the Candi syrup I bought it was kind of underwhelming with the flavor, tasted weak. Definitely not with what I made, and they were both very similar in viscosity.

I would highly recommend trying this. I will put it in my 3$/gal Belgian beer I am trying to develop. It is 10 lbs pils malt and probably 1/2 this syrup so I can tell what it tasted like fermented. I will be putting the other half in a ginger cider to add some complexity.

Ohh, I am in Iowa if anyone is trying to figure out how altitudes figure into the equation
 
Hi everyone - I've just started making home brews in the past 6 months. I can honestly say this is my favorite hobby ever and really haven't had a true hobby since collecting comics when I was 10 (now going on 30).

To give you a background on how I got into it, my bro-in-law bought me a Mr. Beer kit a couple holidays back and after being bored one Sunday morning I decided to open it up, make my first 2.5 gallon batch and then I got hooked. I've been into enjoying micro, home-brewed and some of those favorite Belgian/German, etc brews for a while now and being such a noob, wondered - how am I ever going to get to make a batch that could come close to something so unique, so delicious and complex as something I've had at a brew pub or that someone suggested I pair with a meal? I came across all-grain v. partial v. extract and all-grain brewing seemed to be the path for me - I love how detailed the process is and how a little change here or there can alter the outcome of your brew - customization is key for me as well as making something tried and true. and now much to my wife's amazement (thanks goodness she loves this hobby), i have gotten pretty adventurous while trying to become an amateur student of various styles.

My first batch was a Kolsch - I decided to add Caramunich and Crystal to give it a darker color and a toasty flavor - not traditional by any means, its good but, can you say gusher? Something went haywire with the first one (sanitizing but I thought I did a good job) - but, I spent a lot of time on it and heck its still drinkable even if I have to let it sit a little bit before enjoying.

Next was a Saison I adapted from I believe it was Reaper's recipe I found on these forums - this is where I learned patience in letting it ferment. It was so hard not to drink it while it was still "green" but yea, after a couple months it was even better. This is also where I found out that Saison is my favorite style to make and that 3711 is a monster and very kind to a noob like me. I can never say I perfected the style because I also learned what I really love in a brew - dryness and silky mouthfeel - this one had both oddly enough with a 1.00 OG and the flaked oats really made a huge difference

Next I wanted to try a hybrid of a triple and dubbel - so, I made my "2.5" - I didn't get it to the amber color I wanted, but it ended up more like Delirium Tremens/ Golden Strong - I got my clarity in check with this one and started messing around with candi sugar - made my own, it was tasty enough - just carmelly though and just added ABV, no flavors or color liked I hoped it would - probably relying too much on the sugar and not enough on the malt bill to darken it

Now, onto this topic of candi sugar - I just made what I call "All Hallows' Evening Saison" for next fall - I want to try and perfect the process and take notes on what I like/don't like about it before I really brew it come mid-summer. It is a Pumpkin Saison. I took some ques from the Stingy Jack recipe on here and then I found about about the debate over candi sugar. I purchased some Wyeast DAP and followed Snick's directions. IMO, whether the debate continues or not, my adaptation from his toilings had a direct positive effect on my Pumpkin Saison. I got mine up to 275, between light and dark amber with the DAP. I cooled it down with a steeped spice mix I had made 24 hours before and brought it up to hard crack (I prefer it hard, seems to stay better for me). The spice mix was Cinnamon sticks, whole clove, nutmeg powder, and a pinch of vanilla extract in Green Mountain's French Toast Coffee. The hard candy smelled and tasted like Pumpkin! I added a half a pound total of my "Pumpkin Candi Sugar" with 8, 6, 4 minute increments left in the boil. I tried a green bottle at the 7 day fermentation mark to see if I noticed this sugar I made and used - heck, if it didn't work I was still going to eat it! But, it absolutely made the Saison better - it smells and tastes like the pumpkin candy I made without it being overpowering - you can still tell it has the peppery and tang finish of a 3711 Saison.

Thought I would add this to the convo as Snick's contributions were a big help for my beer-making journey and that adding a cold, steeped spice mix to cool it down before bring it to soft or hard crack did the trick for me.
 
Hi all,
Long time lurker on the site, but this thread got me to register so I could share what I tried today.

I was too lazy/cheap to buy/wait for DAP so I just used some fresh lemon juice and Wyeast yeast nutrient. I checked the Wyeast site and DAP was clearly one of the main ingredients. So, I used 2 tsp of that and a half lemon. Then I just boiled 1.5 cups H2O, added 3 lbs sugar and slowly boiled off the water until I reached 290. Poured onto aluminum foil and cooled. Samples tasted good. Mostly raisin and rum type flavors.

I'll probably get the DAP for the next attempt at this, but was glad to find a workable substitute among my collection of stuff.

Thanks for posting the guide......
 
Hi all,
Long time lurker on the site, but this thread got me to register so I could share what I tried today.

I was too lazy/cheap to buy/wait for DAP so I just used some fresh lemon juice and Wyeast yeast nutrient. I checked the Wyeast site and DAP was clearly one of the main ingredients. So, I used 2 tsp of that and a half lemon. Then I just boiled 1.5 cups H2O, added 3 lbs sugar and slowly boiled off the water until I reached 290. Poured onto aluminum foil and cooled. Samples tasted good. Mostly raisin and rum type flavors.

I'll probably get the DAP for the next attempt at this, but was glad to find a workable substitute among my collection of stuff.

Thanks for posting the guide......

I love the DAP method with 290 - I did a side by side comparison with D-45 and I'll bet yours was just like mine - almost exact same taste, and probably a little better / more complex - I also made the equivalent of 90 and 180 and again, tastes similar if not better - it isn't worth buying the stuff and I won't pay attention to what is considered authentic and what is not ever again - good beer is good beer - you can make any style with this home made stuff and it will taste within style, regardless if you decided to lay down change for store ordered syrup

It's funny because just about everything is from semi-scratch/scratch and you put in a lot of effort, then, you untwist these plastic bags and just "dump" - anytime I can do it myself, I will because I think it just makes the beer more of my creation - not to say those that buy the premade stuff don't make their own beer, but, i just don't buy in to the hype of your beer not being authentic enough without it - I've read plenty of people use plain old cane sugar or home made stuff, even just the caramelized sugar without the DAP, and have won competitions. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you have to.
 
dap huh? interesting....

i have had good success with this recipe from:http://www.brew365.com/technique_candi.php

Make Your Own Candi Sugar
How To
In preparing to brew my first Belgian Saison style beer, I came across many references to the use of Candi Sugar as an adjunct in many recipes. Apparently the term 'candi sugar' is somewhat mistranslated or otherwise misinterpreted here in the US. Most homebrew shops sell these little rock-candy like crystals of varying shades of amber that we use here as the candi sugar adjunct. In Belgium, however, they make their own sugar syrup. As it turns out, this is quite easy to make ...
First off, you're going to need some sugar. Nothing fancy, just plain sugar. Second ingredient is some citric acid. If you have citric acid, great - if not, some lemon juice will be perfect too.
We're going to make a syrup out of your two ingredients so, you guessed it, we're gonna need to cook this up. Now, don't get excited and start digging out your brewpot and burner ... some Medium heat and a smooth-bottomed pan of some sort on the stove should do just fine. Put about 1 cup of sugar and 1 TSP of lemon juice (or pinch of citric acid) together over medium heat and stir (and keep stirring). The sugar will eventually start to melt. This is the part where you need to pay attention and know what style of syrup you're after. I was after a very light one, so I just barely let the sugar turn the palest of yellowish-brown. If you're making a darker beer, let it go a bit more but DO NOT let it burn or, worse, catch fire. Please!
When the sugar is at the right doneness, scrape it from the pan onto an aluminum foil covered surface. Take care as this is HOT and sticky. Not a good combination for exposed skin. Let this cool and harden up. Eat some if you want, it's not great.
Once the sugar is cool, you will need to re-add this to a pan over medium heat and add some water to achieve a consistency somewhere between maple syrup and honey. Let this come to a boil if you want and, voila! - candi sugar syrup the way the Belgian brewers do it.

simple and i like natural ingredients....

GD:mug:
 
dap huh? interesting....

i have had good success with this recipe from:http://www.brew365.com/technique_candi.php

Make Your Own Candi Sugar
How To
In preparing to brew my first Belgian Saison style beer, I came across many references to the use of Candi Sugar as an adjunct in many recipes. Apparently the term 'candi sugar' is somewhat mistranslated or otherwise misinterpreted here in the US. Most homebrew shops sell these little rock-candy like crystals of varying shades of amber that we use here as the candi sugar adjunct. In Belgium, however, they make their own sugar syrup. As it turns out, this is quite easy to make ...
First off, you're going to need some sugar. Nothing fancy, just plain sugar. Second ingredient is some citric acid. If you have citric acid, great - if not, some lemon juice will be perfect too.
We're going to make a syrup out of your two ingredients so, you guessed it, we're gonna need to cook this up. Now, don't get excited and start digging out your brewpot and burner ... some Medium heat and a smooth-bottomed pan of some sort on the stove should do just fine. Put about 1 cup of sugar and 1 TSP of lemon juice (or pinch of citric acid) together over medium heat and stir (and keep stirring). The sugar will eventually start to melt. This is the part where you need to pay attention and know what style of syrup you're after. I was after a very light one, so I just barely let the sugar turn the palest of yellowish-brown. If you're making a darker beer, let it go a bit more but DO NOT let it burn or, worse, catch fire. Please!
When the sugar is at the right doneness, scrape it from the pan onto an aluminum foil covered surface. Take care as this is HOT and sticky. Not a good combination for exposed skin. Let this cool and harden up. Eat some if you want, it's not great.
Once the sugar is cool, you will need to re-add this to a pan over medium heat and add some water to achieve a consistency somewhere between maple syrup and honey. Let this come to a boil if you want and, voila! - candi sugar syrup the way the Belgian brewers do it.

simple and i like natural ingredients....

GD:mug:

if you want to go strictly natural, you should try some date sugar too if you haven't already - you can just buy dates and let those suckers dry out at 350 for an hour, then left in oven overnight, puree or coffee grind those suckers - it adds a great raisin/date/rum-chewy flavor to the sugar - maybe a 1.5 cane, .5 date sugar combo - I found that I had to go through a little more water - was being ultra cautious because it is supposed to change over or brown more quickly
 
if you want to go strictly natural, you should try some date sugar too if you haven't already - you can just buy dates and let those suckers dry out at 350 for an hour, then left in oven overnight, puree or coffee grind those suckers - it adds a great raisin/date/rum-chewy flavor to the sugar - maybe a 1.5 cane, .5 date sugar combo - I found that I had to go through a little more water - was being ultra cautious because it is supposed to change over or brown more quickly

thanx for that tip.....i will try date sugar on my next belgian dark!:D
and maybe can purchase it already made from a health food store....can't be much more expensive than whole dates....

GD51:mug:
 
I love the DAP method with 290 - I did a side by side comparison with D-45 and I'll bet yours was just like mine - almost exact same taste, and probably a little better / more complex - I also made the equivalent of 90 and 180 and again, tastes similar if not better - it isn't worth buying the stuff and I won't pay attention to what is considered authentic and what is not ever again - good beer is good beer - you can make any style with this home made stuff and it will taste within style, regardless if you decided to lay down change for store ordered syrup

It's funny because just about everything is from semi-scratch/scratch and you put in a lot of effort, then, you untwist these plastic bags and just "dump" - anytime I can do it myself, I will because I think it just makes the beer more of my creation - not to say those that buy the premade stuff don't make their own beer, but, i just don't buy in to the hype of your beer not being authentic enough without it - I've read plenty of people use plain old cane sugar or home made stuff, even just the caramelized sugar without the DAP, and have won competitions. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you have to.

If 290 is close to D-45 how do you get the color of a D-90 or D-180 without all of the burnt sugar taste. I keep my heat really low and if I get over 290 degrees it taste burnt
 
Add a little lime (1/4 to 1/2 as much as you use DAP) to help keep the sugar from burning.
Do not use an acid; that will accelerate the burnt candy apple taste.
 
If 290 is close to D-45 how do you get the color of a D-90 or D-180 without all of the burnt sugar taste. I keep my heat really low and if I get over 290 degrees it taste burnt

2 things that helped me out - not sure of what type of pot you're using - I use a 3 gal boiling pot, in other words:

A. I wouldn't use something that has a lot of surface area, but that is fairly deep - I wouldn't try more than 2 lbs at a time, especially when trying to match the 180.
B. Contrary to what is said, once you get past 290, I would absolutely stir, add the cool down water, bring back up to 290. This tastes very similar to D-90, no burnt taste, just a more potent, concentrated version of D-45 - think of some cocoa / toast flavor mixed in with the warm vanilla, figs, plums, stone fruit of the D-45.

also

C. For the 180, I used the 300F directions aka "Mahogany", and cooled it down, and brought it up to around 315- be prepared to use even more water on this one and to stir even more. It has a heavy, roasted cocoa, almost 80-90% Ghiardelli bittersweet, dark chocolate taste to it. It does have a hint of burnt marshmallows in the back after you smack your mouth a couple times but in no way is it "yuck" Almost would be for someone who likes their toast, bagel, muffin a little on the charred side - not terrible, just, a little over done. I don't think my equivalent or the D-180 is for everyone - but, if I'm reading correctly - and from what I've tasted, you should get some of those characteristics mixed in there with the stone fruit. Sure, maybe you can't call my an exact clone - but, I've had myself and others taste it side by side, and maybe in exact lovibond it isn't the same - but the taste profile is REALLY REALLY close.

I would even consider just using 300F "Mahogany" in combination with the 290 for a BDS or Dubbel - like them both. The Mahogany sugar with the DAP method tasts like chocolate covered caramels with maybe even some salty pretzel mixed in - if that makes sense.
 
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