Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

PintOfBitter said:

My batch was carbed and ready in the keg today, so I tasted it. It did not have any yeast bite, though it smelled like it would. Unfortunately, it is quite a bit too sour for my liking... I can taste a very promising flavor in there somewhere, but it's just too puckering for me. May be a dumper to make room for a mild

EDIT:
I used Mott's applejuice. I can tell that I definitely want to try this out again, but I think i'd go for fresh juice without added acids.

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Keg it and let it condition. My first time, but I am sure it will change like everything does with time.

normally i would agree, but acid just won't age out. I cut it with about 1/4 apple juice and it's pretty tasty. The sweetness makes the sour much more palatable. maybe not a dumper after all. next time around I think I'll still go for the fresh juice.

Hmm, this seems like a great idea for the SWMBO, if only I can get her to fund it...

PintOfBitter said:

normally i would agree, but acid just won't age out. I cut it with about 1/4 apple juice and it's pretty tasty. The sweetness makes the sour much more palatable. maybe not a dumper after all. next time around I think I'll still go for the fresh juice.

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Was a bit too sour for me, some extra unfermentables might help imho. Fresh juice might make a world of difference too, or maybe just something to balance the ph from the acid side.

PintOfBitter said:

normally i would agree, but acid just won't age out. I cut it with about 1/4 apple juice and it's pretty tasty. The sweetness makes the sour much more palatable. maybe not a dumper after all. next time around I think I'll still go for the fresh juice.

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The most sour batch of this I made was with fresh juice; I bought it at the mill that pressed it. I doubt yours is sour because of the added vitamin C. It's most likely because of sulphur. Next time you make some, try adding yeast nutrient. It's helped mine a lot.

titobandito said:

The most sour batch of this I made was with fresh juice; I bought it at the mill that pressed it. I doubt yours is sour because of the added vitamin C. It's most likely because of sulphur. Next time you make some, try adding yeast nutrient. It's helped mine a lot.

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+1.

I find that happens sometimes with my Belgian yeast strains. The sulfur gives it a well, sulfur taste that can sometimes be a tad sour tasting. I'm not sure if you can understand what I'm saying, you kind of just have to taste it, but If I was pintofbitter, I'd let it get some age. That helps all things!

HalfPint said:

+1.

I find that happens sometimes with my Belgian yeast strains. The sulfur gives it a well, sulfur taste that can sometimes be a tad sour tasting. I'm not sure if you can understand what I'm saying, you kind of just have to taste it, but If I was pintofbitter, I'd let it get some age. That helps all things!

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I couldn't agree more with letting it age.

well I am pintofbitter and even at half the current sourness it's unpalatable. if I run outta kegs, it's the gutter for ol' Graffy. until then i'll drink it with applejuice, which makes it drinkable even if it's not eminently enjoyable. I will definitely try again; new yeast, new juice, proper care.

PintOfBitter said:

well I am pintofbitter and even at half the current sourness it's unpalatable. if I run outta kegs, it's the gutter for ol' Graffy. until then i'll drink it with applejuice, which makes it drinkable even if it's not eminently enjoyable. I will definitely try again; new yeast, new juice, proper care.

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Did you post what recipe of Brandons you followed? I do the 120L, 1 lb amber dme, and 1 lb light dme. He really is right when he says that the higher roast crystal and amber dme will help mellow your brew.

Also, what hops did you use? You really do need to use a neutral hop next time.

I'm not calling you a newbie by any means, I'm just trying to tell you what I've experienced when making this recipe.

the sulfur taste/smell can sometimes be purged, or so I have read. carb your keg, then bleed off most of the carbonation, then carb again. this is supposed to help remove the sulfury compounds.

Brandon O said:

what was the AA on your cascades? I generally prefer something around 3 or 4%

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Uh oh! Alpha 6%
I never scientifically watch these recipes (never use a Hydrometer anymore). We'll see though, maybe I'll get lucky, again. Six years of brewing and only poured out one batch. I either got a cast iron stomach, or lucky.

I see what they are saying about the krausen. It is going to be there a while, I can tell. Only been four days, still have action in fermentation lock.

jon said:

the sulfur taste/smell can sometimes be purged, or so I have read. carb your keg, then bleed off most of the carbonation, then carb again. this is supposed to help remove the sulfury compounds.

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Wow, that's a great idea! I'm going to try that. Thanks!

I made this recipe again due to a popular demand. Its a damn nice recipe. This second batch hasn't turned out the same as the last batch. Since I didn't log, I don't recall the yeast I used the first time. This time around I used a saison II. Also, a different brand of apple juice. Like many of the posters on this thread, I have a strong sulfur smell and its still very tart. Its been three weeks: One week fermentation, second week in secondary and third week secondary in fridge to help clarify. I went to sample and take a grav reading and sulfur smell is still very strong. Still very tart too. Will this subside? Continue to refridgerate? Or take it back out and age some more? I dont keg and certainly dont want to bottle yet in its current state. Ideas?

Thanks,
TxT

txtaquito said:

I made this recipe again due to a popular demand. Its a damn nice recipe. This second batch hasn't turned out the same as the last batch. Since I didn't log, I don't recall the yeast I used the first time. This time around I used a saison II. Also, a different brand of apple juice. Like many of the posters on this thread, I have a strong sulfur smell and its still very tart. Its been three weeks: One week fermentation, second week in secondary and third week secondary in fridge to help clarify. I went to sample and take a grav reading and sulfur smell is still very strong. Still very tart too. Will this subside? Continue to refridgerate? Or take it back out and age some more? I dont keg and certainly dont want to bottle yet in its current state. Ideas?

Thanks,
TxT

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The Saison II yeast will be more highly attenuative than a Cal Ale yeast, giving you a more dry and quite possibly more tart flavor. I got good results with S-05 and it is what the recipe calls for. Why did you use the Saison yeast?

Also, why only one week in primary? The sulfur aroma may have cleaned itself up with a longer primary. I did three weeks in primary, then one week cold crashing. The cold crashing made very little difference in clarity by the way. I would recommend leaving it on the yeast for longer, and I doubt that a secondary has any value with this recipe.

Just my thoughts.

Eric

HalfPint said:

Did you post what recipe of Brandons you followed? I do the 120L, 1 lb amber dme, and 1 lb light dme. He really is right when he says that the higher roast crystal and amber dme will help mellow your brew.

Also, what hops did you use? You really do need to use a neutral hop next time.

I'm not calling you a newbie by any means, I'm just trying to tell you what I've experienced when making this recipe.

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I wish I had the recipe in front of me, but it's on my other computer. I did an all-grain version of the recipe based on the gravity contribution of the malt extracts, since I didn't have any extract on hand. I believe I used the last of some tettnang I had on hand for the hopping. I'm not picking up any hop character, and just a touch of bitterness. I do remember adding some extra crystal, either 10 or 20L, thinking I'd prefer a sweeter end product. My yeast was Pacman, which I had never used, and which I don't think I like all that much.

All in all, I don't have any qualms about dumping this try and putting the effort into next time to get a good batch. I don't have any interest in aging the stuff much - part of the reason I was attracted to the concept was for the short turnaround time.

just "brewed" mine this afternoon. Used Publix apple juice and ended up with a 1.064 OG. Cant wait to taste this!

EricCSU said:

The Saison II yeast will be more highly attenuative than a Cal Ale yeast, giving you a more dry and quite possibly more tart flavor. I got good results with S-05 and it is what the recipe calls for. Why did you use the Saison yeast?

Also, why only one week in primary? The sulfur aroma may have cleaned itself up with a longer primary. I did three weeks in primary, then one week cold crashing. The cold crashing made very little difference in clarity by the way. I would recommend leaving it on the yeast for longer, and I doubt that a secondary has any value with this recipe.

Just my thoughts.

Eric

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Thats my typical time on a primary. At any rate, since I made a starter with my yeast and had a very vigorous fermentation (almost blow off!), I checked my gravity towards the end of the week and hit the expected FG and figured it was time. Besides, I needed that container it was in to make another brew. Even in the secondary I have nearly an inch of yeast and it still continued to ferment. Gravity yesterday was 1.012. I followed the steps I did last time I brewed this only that I used a different yeast and apple juice this time around. So even as it is now, what can be done to get the sulfur smell/taste out? I can live with the tartness so long as the sulfur is gone. If aging will do it, should I continue with it in the fridge or pull it out to room temp and age a few weeks more?

EricCSU, I am still a novice at this and dont know a whole lot about different yeast strains. When I was at AHS, I asked JB what he thought a good yeast would be for this. Reading the charts, we saw that it would have a good fruity essence with it and decided to go with that. This is a good learning experience as I saw what kind of smell the saison II yeast produced. It was most apparent during fermentation - my wife made sure I was aware of it, LOL! Anyway, next time I will go with the nottingham or S-05 and now I will begin logging my brew sessions since I have the 2010 log book from basicbrewing radio.
Thanks,
TxT

Made my first attempt at this on Thursday night, we had a tonne of various types of apples left over from our organic shares the past 2 weeks (gala, granny smith and crimson gold crab apples) which I juiced - about 1/2 a gallon and made up the rest of the 4 gallons with concentrate.

The OG came out at 1.051 and still waiting on some action in the carboy. I guess seeing the optimal ferment temp is between 64-68 (pretty cool), it will take a bit for the yeast to get going?

jon said:

the sulfur taste/smell can sometimes be purged, or so I have read. carb your keg, then bleed off most of the carbonation, then carb again. this is supposed to help remove the sulfury compounds.

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OK, I bled of the carbonation of a sour batch of graff I have kegged and am now re-carbonating. I tasted it and it's already made a big difference. I'm going to try it again in a few days to see if it will improve even more. It's already gone from barely palatable to enjoyable.

On a side note, I tried Bell's new apple ale at Bell's brewery in Kalamazoo, and I'm wondering if someone there ripped off Brandon O's recipe.

hmmm I didn't think this sounded like a likely solution at all, but now I think I'll give it a try!

I'm wondering what the best amount of corn sugar for (bottle) priming is. If all goes to plan and I get the right FG, should I be sticking with the traditional 3/4 cup (1 oz per gallon) rule or is it better with more or less?

iBrew said:

I'm wondering what the best amount of corn sugar for (bottle) priming is. If all goes to plan and I get the right FG, should I be sticking with the traditional 3/4 cup (1 oz per gallon) rule or is it better with more or less?

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I'd stick with the standard 3/4 cup corn sugar. I keg my beer but my friend bottled his and used the standard amount of corn sugar and it's fine.

I have one batch of this bottled and I'm getting around to doing a second batch varying from the recipe a bit.

.5oz cascade I think they're like 6%
1lb Amber DME
1lb Dark DME
4gal 100% juice no vit C added
2oz torrified wheat
.5lb Crystal 60L
Safale-05 (I think might have been 04)

I'm interested in seeing what the dark DME will do and the absence of the added acid I used in my first batch with Motts AJ. Might come closer in color to the Gunslinger recipe.

Still haven't gotten around to tasting my graff. It's been conditioning for 3 weeks now.

So its like 5 weeks old since batch was started. Every few days ill walk by the keg its in and pop the bleed valve for a split second and enjoy the whiff of graff I get. LoL

How long does this normally take to clear before bottling? I made a 5 gal batch on November 15th & it's still very murky. It nearly had a blowout from the giant krausen, but it's all gone now.

what I used:
1/2 lb caramel 60L
1 lb amber DME
1 lb light DME
1/2oz Saaz @ 3.4%AA
4 gallons Musselmans apple cider
2 tsp pectic enzyme
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient
Safale US-05 yeast

Mine was in the primary for 3 1/2 weeks and four weeks in the bottle. It cleared nicely by that point. It's just over nine weeks old now and is quite tasty.

I used right around 50/50 of Motts and Apple & Eve. Just under a half ounce of 6% AA Cascades and I think the flavor is great.

I am excited to try this but man it has been in the primary for a week and the whole room has a terrible odor. It has to be the worest smelling fermentation I have ever had.....but still excited to taste it

ok, so I am about to bottle this stuff in a few days. Originally in my boil I used a low IBU .5 oz of fuggles. Upon taking my latest reading I tasted the product and noticed it didn't have the right malt to hop flavor ratio. It is too malty. I decided to dry hop with the last .5 oz of fuggles in the package. Just being in the fermenter for a couple days the flavor has balanced amazingly well. As Brandon O said, the marriage of hops to malt is a balancing act and to go with less hops than more, one thing to remember is that you can always add (within reason) but can't take away. This has worked well for me and I will update with any news regarding this batch. Otherwise, I stuck to the recipe word for word. I can't wait to try this stuff, reminds me of my patience for my first batch of beer to finish (or lack of patience, that is)

iBrew said:

ok, so I am about to bottle this stuff in a few days. Originally in my boil I used a low IBU .5 oz of fuggles. Upon taking my latest reading I tasted the product and noticed it didn't have the right malt to hop flavor ratio. It is too malty. I decided to dry hop with the last .5 oz of fuggles in the package. Just being in the fermenter for a couple days the flavor has balanced amazingly well. As Brandon O said, the marriage of hops to malt is a balancing act and to go with less hops than more, one thing to remember is that you can always add (within reason) but can't take away. This has worked well for me and I will update with any news regarding this batch. Otherwise, I stuck to the recipe word for word. I can't wait to try this stuff, reminds me of my patience for my first batch of beer to finish (or lack of patience, that is)

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I can relate this one...I am close to Brandon O's recipe, but decided to not go to LHBS because of time, and pipeline needed a quick 10 gallon start. So not right on, but close, I am still really anticipating something good. Starting to clear, Sun will be two weeks, I will probably keg five gallons Saturday and secondary the last five gallons, to clear out my primaries, so that I can brew.

I brewed a 6 gal. batch of Double Oatmeal Stout.
After racking from the fermenter to a keg there was 1 gal.
remaining on the yeast cake. I vigorously poured 4 gal of apple juice
into fermenter and left 3 weeks.
OG 1.044 FG 1.010
Yummy.

I bottled mine last night after two weeks in primary and three weeks in a carboy. After five weeks it is starting to get good, the strong hooch taste is mellowing greatly. I would suggest at least a 4 week secondary and next time I will plan better to leave it in a secondary for longer. Only reason I bottled at five weeks was I needed my carboy. I am going to leave it alone for at least three weeks before I try one.

I will have to say I was very speptical of this. I have been tasting it once a week since I made it. In the begining I thought it was the worst thing I have ever brewed, tasted like a wheat beer with an infection. It is really amazing how this has changed from week to week, though I do not know how anyone could drink this in two to three weeks from brewing it. After five weeks it has mellowed greatly and in three to four more weeks of conditioning I think it will be great.

going to make a couple one gallon batches.
anybody have the recipe for one gallon?
i looked through all the posts and seen a few people did one gallon but did not see the recipe. do i just divide the original /5...

smokinghole said:

.5oz cascade I think they're like 6%
1lb Amber DME
1lb Dark DME
4gal 100% juice no vit C added not from concentrate (costco brand)
1.5oz torrified wheat
.5lb Crystal 60L
Safale-04

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Just brewed this up yesterday. I tasted the wort and besides it being real sweet it was delicious. It is one dark cider thanks to the Dark DME. I this stab was better than last. I ended up with OG of 1.070. I have it in a 6 gallon BB hoping I don't get a crazy krauzen having to worry about blow off.

Had mine in primary for damn near three weeks, and I still have 1/2 to 1 inch of kraeusen. Think it'll go down if I give it more time, or might I just as well bottle? I was thinking about getting to that tonight...

My Krausen was down much sooner, but I had little islands that looked like spit for quite some time. (Probably outgassing). They were gone in a couple of weeks. I started on 5-September-2009 and bottled 27-Sept-2009. Took a good 4 weeks to condition to where I had a carbonation level I liked. Haven't cracked one open for about 2 weeks now. Time to sample some before bringing it to a Xmas party on Dec 18th.

First time making this - looking forward to it.

Any opinion on using Munton's yeast? I've got a yeast cake from a Munton's Premium Range kit that I bottled last night, and would really like to throw it on top of that.

Wondering if it's suitable? I've got some Safale S-04 and Wyeast 3068. No Nottingham, sent it all back 8-(

paint_it_black said:

Had mine in primary for damn near three weeks, and I still have 1/2 to 1 inch of kraeusen. Think it'll go down if I give it more time, or might I just as well bottle? I was thinking about getting to that tonight...

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Well, maybe I take that back. I set the carboy out on the counter to let it settle before bottling, and it's no longer so much a layer of bubbles as little islands of gunky stuff, much like those described in the above post. Not gonna worry about it (although I am putting off bottling for a day when I have more umph left in me).

Finally bottled this bad boy tonight, and... man! Even room temp, uncarbonated, it tasted great! I can't even imagine how good it'll be once it's conditioned. Starting to regret only doing a half batch...

Ok, I went ahead and put it on the Munton's yeast cake.

The next day, this thing was fermenting like I've never seen anything do it before! Temp is about 68F, so it's not too high, and there is a steady stream of bubbles coming out of the airlock.

I've never seen fermentation this vigorous!

paint_it_black said:

Finally bottled this bad boy tonight, and... man! Even room temp, uncarbonated, it tasted great! I can't even imagine how good it'll be once it's conditioned. Starting to regret only doing a half batch...

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Lol.

I was with you on that. I had mine in primary for 3 weeks and decided to keg. I tasted it room temp and flat, it was good. I had it in the keg for a week at 14 psi at 40*F and I don't like it as much as I did then. I'm going to let it condition another week or so. I hope it will be good for the family I've got coming into town next week.

J