Single Vessel, All Electric, NS, NC Brewery

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ScubaSteve

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Okay Guys-

This post is half brewing process, half equipment. But we all like our gear, so here goes!

This is my conceptualization of a single vessel brewery, from bottom to top:

1) Use one large vessel, like a keggle or 20 gal Blingmann. You could go with a nicer pot, since you'll only need one :rockin:
2) False bottom with 1/2" diptube, or bottom valve.
3) 5500W ULD element through the side, 1" above the false bottom
4) A stainless stock pot basket lined with SS screen, almost as big as the keggle, but still able to be removed/inserted. Small legs on bottom to keep it from bending horizontal heating element.
5) A hand crank or similar mechanical device that can haul the basket out and keep it suspended.
6) A drop in sprayball for CIP

7) On the outside, you have:
A) A sight gauge
B) Short probe thermometer (to avoid hitting basket)
C) RIMS heat exchanger for maintaining temp/step mashing while recircing for clarity. You could also heat sparge water with this if so desired.
D) A Little Giant 3-MD-HC Mag Drive Pump
E) A BCS-460 to control the burners and pump

This would be a NO CHILL, NO SPARGE, ALL ELECTRIC, Brew-In-A-Basket Rig.

It will have enough volume to do 10 Gallon and high gravity batches, sparging can still be done if desired.

Process:

1) Follow Brew in a Bag procedures but with the basket. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/ Once mash is done, dump the basket out and then use it for hops. You can let your hops float free and haul them all out at the end!
2) Adjust hop additions for No-Chill brewing techniques: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/ (later hop additions)
3) Drain hot, unchilled wort to a sanitized corny or sanke and take some wort for a Real Wort Starter (RWS)
4) Drop in CIP spray ball and recirc hot PBW. There should be very little trub due to the screened basket.
5) Pressurize corny or sanke to prevent vacuum in the vessel when cooling
6) Once cool (~24-48 hrs), pitch starter and use Fermcap
7) Once fermentation is about 75% complete, attach spunding valve and follow "Closed-System-Pressurized-Fermentation" techniques: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/

Sound like a plan?:mug:
 
I realize it's a lot to read, here's some basic concept pics of the brewery itself:

BIABNSNCALLELECTRICBREWERYMASHING.jpg


BIABNSNCALLELECTRICBREWERYSPARGE.jpg


BIABNSNCALLELECTRICBREWERYBOIL.jpg
 
BIABNSNCALLELECTRICBREWERYRACK.jpg


BIABNSNCALLELECTRICBREWERYCIP.jpg


FWIW, Old Skool Paint is still the bomb! (I can't figure out how to do cylinders, etc. in Sketchup)

This seems like an easy way to do a compact, powerful, and potentially beautiful system. A plate chiller or CFC could easily be added for those uncomfortable with No-Chill. A 15-20 gallon vessel could be used to allow for 10 gal batches, and for those wanting a higher OG or efficiency, sparging can be employed....but it wouldn't be necessary.

This small brewery could be wheeled right next to your ferm fridge, and the BCS-460 could easily control it.

What do you guys think?
 
That's basically my setup. I use a couple of PID's. I use a 15 gallon SS pot with a steamer basket (I use DME to get up to gravity, but with a 20 gallon you don't need to). I don't leave the basket in during the boil. I don't have a false bottom, I just use a home made bag in the basket.

It makes good beer :) I added a ratcheting pulley for pulling out the basket.
 
I'm planning something similar, but more like bakins'. Why bother with the RIMS tube, when you can put a bag in the basket and use the heater in the kettle?
 
I wondered the same thing, and then I thought it would be nice to deliver on-demand sparge water for rinsing the grain.

FWIW, I guess you could still go with the bag in the basket, but with the SS screen that McMaster sells, you've got a more permanent option that will clean up well. It's 100% food grade, as well.

I really think this can be done, and done well. You could use 1 vessel where most of us use 3, and you could focus on top quality components because you're buying less valves and fittings.
 
I dont understand the purpose of the false bottom. What are you intending it to do?

If I were going for compact, I would also think about losing the RIMS and just heating with the BK element on the PID controller. You could adjust the amount of liquid below the basket to make sure that you are not scorching anything or overheating past your set point.
 
I dont understand the purpose of the false bottom. What are you intending it to do?

If I were going for compact, I would also think about losing the RIMS and just heating with the BK element on the PID controller. You could adjust the amount of liquid below the basket to make sure that you are not scorching anything or overheating past your set point.

I hear ya...I thought the fb was overkill too, but I think it gives a good second level of coarse, non-clogging filtration plus a flat, solid surface for the basket to sit on.

I still think the RIMS is warranted for sparging. If you add water directly into the pot, you'd have to rely on the BK element to bring the temp back up. It's much quicker and more efficient to raise the temp of a small amount of water, and rinse the grain with it so as to decrease viscosity of the retained wort in the mash.

I'm not so worried about scorching, as the BK element would be ULD and would only be turned on when the basket is removed or to heat strike water.

The only real showstoppers I see in this design are:
1) Size of the pot and basket could be a limiting factor. I figure a 15 gal stock pot basket should hold 30 lbs of grain plus all the water it absorbs. A 15 gal basket should sit in the pot well, I think.

2) Basket clearing the temp probe on the inside of the BK.

3) Efficency issues....but I think this is solved by hauling most of the mash out and rinsing it. This should be done conservatively and only to reach pre-boil volume, as tannins are undesireable.

Am I missing any other potential hurdles?:confused:
 
I am designing a system that has some similarities. I understand the desire for that extra course filtration, but I would avoid it. It is a filter that you cannot clean out, and therefore will keep grain particles in the boil (not a huge deal) and is one more thing to deal with (I like simple).

You could place another temperature probe at the outlet going to the RIMS system.

I might go with an outer pot larger than 20 gallons if you have the ability. The 15 gallon inner pot is fine. A 15.5 gallon keggle can apparently do 37lbs of grain and 1.25 qts/lb of water, so you should be fine (Bobby_M has a table worth looking at in the sticky of the equipment section).
 
I like simple and low budget, but I'm also looking at making this thing pretty.:rockin:

FWIW, when you use your bag, how much husk do you have kinda floating around? It's impossible to avoid it all, but if it were very minimal I could probably forgo the FB (even though I just bought two for my keggles :().

I considered placing the temp probe at the outlet, but I'd want to get an idea of the mash temp. Maybe I could do a thermowell in the lid that would dip into the center of the mash.....then run the wire to the BCS. Other than that, I don't need a thermometer in the side to tell me the wort is boiling.

I figured a 15 gallon basket would be fine, seeing how I never had trouble with my 10 gallon cooler.....but the question is, "Is the basket really 15 gallons, or does it just fit in the accompanying 15 gallon pot?" Without the actual size of the basket, it's difficult to make these predictions.
 
I think you have a solid concept. I have a couple observations/ questions.

1) What is you water to grain ratio during mashing? The electric element is going to create a TON of dead space. I think it would be very hard to get 1.25 qt/pound. In my E-keggle, i need 4 gallons to immerse the heater.

2) If you are going to CIP, i would strongly encourage you to go with a center bottom drain, rather than a dip tube. It is very hard to get all the crud out with a dip tube (especially the floating type).


3) If you are using an electric element, i would not spend a ton of money on a fancy Kettle. Half the cost of the fancy kettle is in the 3 ply bottom, which is not needed if you are not firing the kettle with a burner.

4) The false bottom is probably not necessary. let the basket stand on the bottom of the kettle

5) You may want a different or longer tube for racking. The picture shows you spraying hot wort into the top of the corney. Although this may just be schematic in nature, i figured i'd mention it.

Good luck, and post some pictures when you get building
 
I think you have a solid concept. I have a couple observations/ questions.

1) What is you water to grain ratio during mashing? I was hoping not to compromise, doing the normal 1.25-1.5 qt/lb. The electric element is going to create a TON of dead space. I think it would be very hard to get 1.25 qt/pound. In my E-keggle, i need 4 gallons to immerse the heater.This is good to know. If I were to take out the false bottom and mount the element as low as possible, this would mitigate dead space. I'd probably go with a 25 gallon pot that is 21" high, and a 20 gallon basket that is 13.25" high. I need to still be able to put the lid on while mashing, etc.

2) If you are going to CIP, i would strongly encourage you to go with a center bottom drain, rather than a dip tube. It is very hard to get all the crud out with a dip tube (especially the floating type). Tremendous idea!!!! I'm all about the "100% Drained" concept. I'd really like to do this....it's just a challenge to mount, etc. and I'm not a welder. But I could probably solder a coupler in. What kinda screens could I put over the hole?


3) If you are using an electric element, i would not spend a ton of money on a fancy Kettle. Half the cost of the fancy kettle is in the 3 ply bottom, which is not needed if you are not firing the kettle with a burner. Not to mention it'd be like drilling into a bank vault. Stiil, I can get a "fancy kettle" from morebeer/NB for $150-$200 less than Blichmann. The sight gauges and snap in dip tubes are sweeeeet though.

4) The false bottom is probably not necessary. let the basket stand on the bottom of the kettleNot possible with an element, but I'd probably put 2 "U" shaped bars in paralell or some kinda legs on the bottom for a standoff distance from the element. (Kinda hard to see in the photo)

5) You may want a different or longer tube for racking. The picture shows you spraying hot wort into the top of the corney. Although this may just be schematic in nature, I figured I'd mention it.That's loc-line. I'm open to other options, but it is non-collapsible, rated for temp, and stays in the position you bend it. In short, it is the balls. The nozzle probably wouldn't be there, as I wouldn't want to "spray" wort.

Good luck, and post some pictures when you get building
SEE COMMENTS ABOVE. Thanks...this is all purely in my head at this stage. To fund it, I would need to sell a couple of my nice plasma cut and welded kegs, a march pump, and prolly some other stuff. I wanna be sure it's worth taking THAT big of a plunge
 
After doing some research, it looks like the Bayou Classic stockpots are a good option because they are made to fit together. A couple things:

1)The basket IS about 4" shorter. this amounts to about 4 gallons of dead space. It could make 5 gallon batches impossible because the mash would be too high in the pot. Not sure how to combat this. Glass beads? Longer boil?

2)After crunching numbers, the 82 qt (20 gal) pot has a basket which is about 50 qt (13gal). Likewise, the 102 qt (25 gal) pot has a basket around 75 qt (~19 gal). Buyer beware if you plan on using the basket as a MLT!

Right now I'm either thinking of going with a Megapot (best quality option) and modding it....adding a basket with legs, or just getting a Bayou Classic w/basket (most economic option).
 
After doing some research, it looks like the Bayou Classic stockpots are a good option because they are made to fit together. A couple things:

1)The basket IS about 4" shorter. this amounts to about 4 gallons of dead space. It could make 5 gallon batches impossible because the mash would be too high in the pot. Not sure how to combat this. Glass beads? Longer boil?

2)After crunching numbers, the 82 qt (20 gal) pot has a basket which is about 50 qt (13gal). Likewise, the 102 qt (25 gal) pot has a basket around 75 qt (~19 gal). Buyer beware if you plan on using the basket as a MLT!

Right now I'm either thinking of going with a Megapot (best quality option) and modding it....adding a basket with legs, or just getting a Bayou Classic w/basket (most economic option).

I believe that the Bayou Classic pots have two different configurations, one that has an indentation in the pot that catches the top lip of the basket and holds it off the bottom (steamer option), and another with a full-size basket that sits in the bottom of the pot. From what I could find on the 62 quart steamer, there is only about 2 inches below the basket, so that would be about two gallons. Of course, this assumes that the description is accurate. I agree that the other option is to buy the pot and basket separately, and put the basket on some legs. I would want enough space to plumb valves and the like, but not so much space for the reasons you stated.

"The Bayou Classic 62 Quart Stainless Steel Stock Pot includes the 62 quart stainless steel stock pot, 62 quart stainless steel stock pot basket and stainless steel lid. The Bayou Classic stainless steel stock pots are made of high gauge, restaurant quality stainless steel. This stock pot does have Bayou Classic’s steaming capabilities. The Bayou Classic 62 quart stainless steel stock pot has an indention which holds the stock pot basket off the bottom. This gives you about two inches in the bottom for your liquid for perfect steaming. The Bayou Classic 62 Quart Stainless Steel Stock Pot is the perfect addition to any cooking environment. It also features a vented lid and heavy duty riveted handles. The Bayou Classic 62 Quart Stainless Steel Stock Pot measures 15 1/4 inches x 18 ¾ inches. The 62 quart stainless steel stock pot basket measures 14 inches by 14 5/8 inches. These pots may be used in a commercial atmosphere. All Bayou Classic Stainless Steel Stock Pots are a thicker gauge and grade than most of your stainless steel stock pots. The grade of the stainless steel is 304 and the gauge is 18/8 stainless steel."
 
On lunch break don't have time to read your post in detail now. I will later.

Briefly, yes I think it will work.

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerd...ewery_Design_Series_The_Single_Vessel_System/

I have several parts lists if you are interested.

Man, I wish I had your skills on Sketchup. Every guy has to have skills....fighting skills, bowhunting skills.....

Don't know how I missed this....I read through your whole "simple" system thread....I think that one had 2 vessels, though. I also dig that toolbox control panel!

I'll take a look...;)
 
Could you post a link to this, please?

I'll do you one better. Search for BobbyM's DIY hopstopper thread. He discussed screen mesh pretty thoroughly and gives part numbers. For this application, I'd go significantly bigger on my mesh for a very coarse filter. Close to a perforated SS false bottom....maybe even bigger on the bottom drain.
 
On lunch break don't have time to read your post in detail now. I will later.

Briefly, yes I think it will work.

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerd...ewery_Design_Series_The_Single_Vessel_System/

I have several parts lists if you are interested.

Very nice. A couple thoughts:

1) You could REALLY lower the profile by making this electric...I'm thinking 48" tall, max. I realize electric is not an option for everyone, though.

2) What size pot are you thinking about? I'm thinking 82 or 102 quart...mainly due to the basket size and limitations placed on grain weighty the 62 quart. I also looked at the Update International SS pots (identical to Megapots). You could modify this exactly how you want it, and it's much more durable than the Bayou Classic. Price for pot and basket would be just a little more (~$50) than Bayou Classic combo.

3) I could live with 2" dead space. You need some height to install the element nut and gasket properly, and some distance from the basket. The element should only be about 1.5" off the bottom.

4) What about more of a "belltower" configuration? Instead of one arm, why not have an arch. Just seems more symmetrical, and definitely stronger.
 
Very nice. A couple thoughts:

1) You could REALLY lower the profile by making this electric...I'm thinking 48" tall, max. I realize electric is not an option for everyone, though.

2) What size pot are you thinking about? I'm thinking 82 or 102 quart...mainly due to the basket size and limitations placed on grain weighty the 62 quart. I also looked at the Update International SS pots (identical to Megapots). You could modify this exactly how you want it, and it's much more durable than the Bayou Classic. Price for pot and basket would be just a little more (~$50) than Bayou Classic combo.

3) I could live with 2" dead space. You need some height to install the element nut and gasket properly, and some distance from the basket. The element should only be about 1.5" off the bottom.

4) What about more of a "belltower" configuration? Instead of one arm, why not have an arch. Just seems more symmetrical, and definitely stronger.

All great points. If electric is an option I think that is the way to go! The system in my blog was supposed to be super portable. Not everyone has 240VAC available in a brewing space so I stuck with propane on that one.

:off: Yeah the Simple brewery is a good one. I will be building a second for myself in the next weeks. I'll update that thread. It is a two-vessel system that runs on a single 20amp 120VAC wall outlet. Run it in any kitchen or apartment!!!
 
Pelican Sky is acting crazy. I think you were looking at the 82qt, based on the SKU you listed on the parts list....?
 
Internet is kinda unreliable where I'm at...but I'm glad to have it.

You've given me a lot to think about. I'm amazed more people aren't doing this. Why have 3 vessels, etc. when you can have one? That way, you can focus on the bling!
 
Yeah... the link I posted takes me to the 82 qt. It doesn't when you click it???

Any ideas on how you might line the basket? I'd like to do medium sized SS mesh for something more permanent, but I'm not sure about the best way to affix it to the inside.:confused:
 
I like where all this is going. I've been considering a 2 vessel setup similar to the Brutus 20, but done with some gravity like Jkarp did. It would seem that adding the BIAB/stainless basket setup would really make that work well.

Those Pelican pots are quite a deal for the size of 'em.
 
Any ideas on how you might line the basket? I'd like to do medium sized SS mesh for something more permanent, but I'm not sure about the best way to affix it to the inside.:confused:

It is hard to argue with those grain bags. At a couple bucks a pop and being super easy to clean... SS mesh would work well too.

I like where all this is going. I've been considering a 2 vessel setup similar to the Brutus 20, but done with some gravity like Jkarp did. It would seem that adding the BIAB/stainless basket setup would really make that work well.

Those Pelican pots are quite a deal for the size of 'em.

You may want to take a look at the Simple Brewery linked in my sig. Its just another option.
 
Those Pelican pots are quite a deal for the size of 'em.

Shipping charges aren't listed unless you set up an account. I've found these in the 180's with free shipping, though. Seems like a good deal since you're getting the basket as well.....but man, those Megapots sure are nice. I really like the Blichmann's too (especially the sight gauge), but they already have a diptube that will get in the way and I wouldn't feel right drilling into a $400 pot!
 
This looks very promising.

So how much vertical space is beneath the basket on the Bayou Classic 82 qt pot as it sits naturally, and how much would there be if one raised it as high as possible while still being able to put on the lid?

Also, I am still unclear as to why a RIMS tube would be necessary, when there is already a heater element in the pot. Could one not just recirculate from the bottom of the pot into the top of the basket, using a PID on the heater element in the pot?

Inquiring minds want to know....:mug:
 
Awesome. I might have to steal some more of your models on Sketchup! You do good work!

I like the integrated deep sink. You could have a bottom valve on the vessel, with a tee, and reroute your wastewater into the sink when it comes time to CIP.

Or, you could modify the sink's drain and ferment in it! Wrap a glycol coil around it, and you're set. Maybe use a CFC and then you've got a chiller for your fermenter AND your wort. You'd have room under the unit for a small freezer.

Also, why not put the controls under the table, but in the same location? It'd be protected, and you'd free up space on the table.

Rather than hooking the hoist on the wall, maybe make an overarching "hutch" out of SS square tube. You could use it as a top shelf for storage, plus the hoist on the underside would be strong enough to haul ~75 lbs. max.....
 
Starting to get the hang of sketchup....I have a few models up under ScubaSteve in the Sketchup Warehouse. B-K, I took the liberty of turning your Bayou Classic 82qt into a 100qt MegaPot!

I want the RIMS so I can add on-demand hot water over the basket in order to sparge. I want to be able to do everything that a 3 vessel rig can do, in one vessel. My RIMS will essentially be my HLT, though I plan on heating strike water directly in the pot.
 
The other idea I had was to somehow seal the sides of the basket so that the only flow was through the base. Basically a zap-pap sparge system except it is the brew kettle. Not exactly sure how to do it though.

This would make sparging more effective.
 
Well, the more places you give the liquor to rinse and escape the tun, you'll be rinsing a lot more out. Plus you don't want to close off the holes as it will also be used as a hop basket when you boil. Don't know why, but I really want a 100 quart pot. I figure if you got a megapot then you could buy the basket separate and you could dial down the deadspace in the bottom. The basket should fit all the way down, as there is no lip for it to rest on.

It would be nice to be able to do 5-25 gallon batches in a rig like this...but I can see issues with it being too big for a 5gal batch. The deadspace alone is 4 gallons, and you gotta get the grain basket dipped in there deep for a good mash. Maybe you'd have to compensate with a long boil....these pots DO have high evap rates, and I'm sure the 5500W ULD will help :)
 
I want the RIMS so I can add on-demand hot water over the basket in order to sparge. I want to be able to do everything that a 3 vessel rig can do, in one vessel. My RIMS will essentially be my HLT, though I plan on heating strike water directly in the pot.

I am sorry if I am being dense, but would that work the same way if you recirculated from out of the bottom of the pot and into the top of the basket, with a heating element in the kettle, and without a separate heating element in the RIMS tube? What purpose does a separate element in the RIMS tube serve?
 
80% no-sparge huh? Is this due to your grain crush?

BTW, I'm very interested in this compact Single Vessel idea. Time to get a bigger pot!
 
80% no-sparge huh? Is this due to your grain crush?

I generally get 100% conversion and have no dead space. I just make sure the pH is right. I crush @.030 on my barley crusher. I generally dough-in at 135 and raise to mash temp -- no dough-balls and easy to do with my RIMS. 90 minute boil. Larger grain bills are slightly lower.
 
Bakins, what's the biggest grain bill you've done in that 62 quart setup? I did the math, and the actual volume of the basket is 9.75 gallons.

Something else to consider for reducing deadspace: Use a non Bayou Classic pot and buy a steamer basket separately. The basket should drop all the way in. You could bend the element down slightly and then back to horizontal, and this might buy you a few centimeters....which would amount to a significant volume in a 25 gal pot.....YMMV.

Regarding the RIMS. Yes, the element in the BK can be used exclusively to heat the mash and recirculate. What it can't do is introduce FRESH heated water into the system for sparging. Hence, the RIMS. I would be able to select between water or wort at the inlet of the RIMS, via a 3-way valve (haven't figured my plumbing out yet). I plan on using the BCS-460 so the cost of another element, SSR, etc. is minimal and gives me more flexibility.

Sparging may not be necessary for some of us, but I see nothing wrong with getting a nice rinse at the end. I imagine you'd get quite a bit of sugar out of there with a 170F rinse using fresh water due to the difference in osmolarity.
 
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