Sour beer every time

Hey guys - I posted this in the beginners forum as well but thought I'd bring it here for your input as well. Thanks in advance for any help you offer. It's much appreciated.

I'm still a beginner at this, but I do have 8 extract brews under my belt. But I have noticed a trend with all of my beers to this point. All of them develop a sour kind of taste in the bottles. It's probably there prior to bottling, but for whatever reason it really comes out after being conditioned for a while in bottles.

All have been kits bought from either Midwest or NB. I use liquid yeast with a starter. I am pretty meticulous about sanitation. I have a 5 gallon container of Star San solution mixed with distilled water. I usually just reuse this for sanitation. I have a chest freezer for temperature control and keep fermentation temps at about 68 for ales. I have used several different fermentation vessels and all of them have produced a pungent beer regardless of style.

The one exception to this was an IPA I did. I didn't notice it as much. I think the hoppy profile either covered it or perhaps the hop oils from dry hopping protected it from any infection.

I want to transition to all grain, but before I do so is like to figure out where my process is wrong.

One thing that has come to mind. I don't aerate very well. I usually just pour in the yeast after some shaking of the fermenter. Could that be a big problem?

Whats the PH of your 5 gallon star san solution? Could be that it is above the recommended level and your not sanitizing like you think you are.

I don't know. I need to get some pH test strips. That could be an issue. Another issue is that maybe my fermentation freezer is too warm and causing the yeast to put out some off flavors. I put the temp probe on the side of the fermenter and tape a paper towel over it. You think that gives me an accurate reading?

How are you cooling the wort before fermentation?
What is your process for bottling and sanitizing associated with it?

My first few beers I used an ice bath. Now I have a wort chiller that works pretty well. Since I do extract at the moment, I get it down to about 90 and then pour in cold spring water.

Bottling goes like this. I always rinse out my bottles as soon as I decant. I use a bottling brush as well. Before I bottle, I let them soak in some oxiclean overnight and then rinse well. Before I actually bottle the beer, I use a vintinator to shoot some Star San into the bottle and then let the drip in a bottle tree. I bottle with a bottling bucket (sanitized of course), cap, and then I'm done. I use corn sugar to carb up. I boil it for 10 minutes and then pour into the beer before bottling.

Since my very first batch with new equipment had this off flavor, I think it might be something in my temps, water, or sanitation methods. Thoughts?

What temp do you pitch your yeast? If you're using lme, how old is it?

I will pitch when it is about 75. It will cool down quickly in the freezer. Perhaps I should pitch it when it gets down to 67 or so in the freezer. I use LME that is from Northern Brewer or Midwest. I wouldn't think their kits had old LME.

OKCAg2002 said:

I have a 5 gallon container of Star San solution mixed with distilled water. I usually just reuse this for sanitation.

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Why????? You have a possible infection issue and you're reusing StarSan? To save a quarter?

A quarter? It's more like several dollars per batch if you don't reuse it. 5 gallons on bottling day and 5 gallons on brew day. It adds up. Maybe I'm just cheap.

OKCAg2002 said:

A quarter? It's more like several dollars per batch if you don't reuse it. 5 gallons on bottling day and 5 gallons on brew day. It adds up. Maybe I'm just cheap.

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Well, you don't need to make 5 gallons and fill the bucket all the way up. One gallon will do if you are careful to have the liquid and bubbles make contact with every surface of the bucket a few times.

If you're buying your Star San from the local shop, you may be getting gouged. A 32oz bottle is about $23 from Amazon, and should provide enough sanitizer for at least 60 or so batches.

http://www.amazon.com/-7517-Star-San--32-oz/dp/B0064O7YFA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387577908&sr=8-1&keywords=star+san+32

After twenty or so batches, I had an IPA unexpectedly turn out with a very sour finish. I closely examined my process and determined that I had become complacent in several key areas of cleanliness and sanitation - namely my plastic tubing, auto-siphon, and bottling bucket spigot.

When bottling, my usual process had been to simply pump a little Star San solution through my tubing using my auto-siphon. After bottling, I ran a little more Star San through both items and called it a day. Unfortunately, Star San is a great sanitizer, but does not clean very well at all. My tubing and auto-siphon would dry out leaving behind a very faint, sugary film upon which all kinds of nasty things probably took root. Since switching to a careful rinse, clean with Straight A, rinse, sanitize with Star San process, I have not had any more noticeable bacterial contaminations (noticeable by my palate, at least).

Additionally, I discovered that my bottling bucket spigot was harboring some black sludge-like material in hard-to-reach corners. I had been rinsing it off with Star San after every use, but clearly that wasn't doing the trick. I am very careful now to disassemble it after every use and thoroughly clean it before putting it away.

You know, now that you mention it my tubing is pretty cloudy. I figured it was from oxyclean. It definitely is not as clear as it was when new. How do you rinse it out to get rid of that film?

I think I may have a smoking gun.

OKCAg2002 said:

One thing that has come to mind. I don't aerate very well. I usually just pour in the yeast after some shaking of the fermenter. Could that be a big problem?

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You describe the off-flavor as being sour, which is usually indicative of bacterial contamination; however, it's also possible that you are detecting Acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is often described as a green-apple-like flavor, but I think it could very easily also be described as sour.

I also had a very bad Acetaldehyde problem in my first several extract beers. My usual solution was to let it age for a couple months, and eventually the off taste would simply go away.

At about the time I stopped using my secondary fermenter, the Acetaldehyde taste almost completely disappeared from my beers. I think I was unintentionally oxygenating my almost-finished beer. The flavor always seemed to intensify after bottling, just as you are describing.

More information about it can be found here.

I dont think it's the tubing, tubing will cloud from the oxyclean over time.

You mentioned that you add spring for water. What is the source? Perhaps that could be the common thread.

I think VT-NAV is on the right track. How long are you waiting from brew day to drinking?

OKCAg2002 said:

You know, now that you mention it my tubing is pretty cloudy. I figured it was from oxyclean. It definitely is not as clear as it was when new. How do you rinse it out to get rid of that film?

I think I may have a smoking gun.

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The tubing could simply have some scale from Oxyclean clinging to it. I never used Oxyclean, so when my tubing started looking a little cloudy, it was clearly something else.

Anyway, an overnight soak in Straight A had my tubing looking like new.

Tubing is very cheap though. I would just shell out $2 for new tubing and just change my cleaning process moving forward.

Something else to consider - Oxyclean is effective, but can leave behind a film. PBW is also effective, leaves behind no film, but is prohibitively expensive for a cheap-skate like me. A good alternative might be to look into making your own PBW-like cleanser using a 70/30 mixture of Oxyclean and TSP/90. More information here.

StarSan will make tubing cloud up like a mofo, even though it's sanitary.

Just to throw out a thought, maybe you're just sensitive to what people call the "extract twang." I've never tasted that, but then I've only ever brewed one extract batch before I went all grain. Just to hypothesize.

I've thought that could be the case as well. I just opened up a room temp Flat Tire clone. Yuck.

My guess is not waiting long enough for the process to complete....

Heh, Someday you may intentionally plan on brewing sour beer!
Don't throw em out or dump them in case of that eventuality.
How are you sanitizing the bottle-caps?

Maybe you could switch to full volume boils?

There is a section in several homebrew books about sanitary tenchique, and maybe you're missing something. Is the bottling bucket scratched? Is the plastic valve at the bottom old or dirty? They're hard to clean..

TD

rawlus said:

My guess is not waiting long enough for the process to complete....

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Possible. The bock went for about two months at the correct temps so I'm not sure about that one. I may have bottled the flat tire clone too early.

Do your beers look infected? Although beer can be infected without visual signs. after this many batches I would say its aceldehywhateverthefckitis. My extract brews had this flavour. Every one of them and I chalked it up to the unboiled tap water I was adding was somehow causing this flavour. The cure? All grain and never look back

Check your bottling bucket spigot (if you're using a three piece). This got me and ruined a couple of batches in a row. **** gets stuck in between the two pieces and grows bacteria, infecting your beer. I know nothing is supposed to get in there, but it does. Run some hot water over it and pull it apart (believe me, it will come apart) and clean in between the pieces. I started using a two piece spigot that doesn't swivel for this exact reason.

snowtires said:

Do your beers look infected? Although beer can be infected without visual signs. after this many batches I would say its aceldehywhateverthefckitis. My extract brews had this flavour. Every one of them and I chalked it up to the unboiled tap water I was adding was somehow causing this flavour. The cure? All grain and never look back

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I'm planning on going all grain after the holidays! I'm done with extract twang (and I think it actually exists).

jeremy0209 said:

Check your bottling bucket spigot (if you're using a three piece). This got me and ruined a couple of batches in a row. **** gets stuck in between the two pieces and grows bacteria, infecting your beer. I know nothing is supposed to get in there, but it does. Run some hot water over it and pull it apart (believe me, it will come apart) and clean in between the pieces. I started using a two piece spigot that doesn't swivel for this exact reason.

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Good call. I'll check it ASAP. I have one of those swivel taps as well.

OKCAg2002 said:

A quarter? It's more like several dollars per batch if you don't reuse it. 5 gallons on bottling day and 5 gallons on brew day. It adds up. Maybe I'm just cheap.

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Huh? Several dollars? You mix one ounce per 5 gallons and you shouldn't need 5g for a brew day. I mix 2.5 in a 5g bucket and that's more than enough

BackAlley said:

Huh? Several dollars? You mix one ounce per 5 gallons and you shouldn't need 5g for a brew day. I mix 2.5 in a 5g bucket and that's more than enough

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It's a contact sanitizer. You don't need to fill the bucket and the carboy and all that. I usually make just a 1Qt spray bottle full. Pour a little in the carboy and swirl it around spray it through tubing and onto other implements and I've done this for hundreds of batches. There is no need to make gallons and gallons of the stuff each time you brew.

Sweet. That's great advice and much cheaper than doing a 5 gallon batch. Thanks!

I really resent that this poster has the same sour beer problem being discussed in 2 different forums. Here's the other one.

We've doubled up on pretty much every solution regarding contamination, bottling buckets, spigots etc. I think one of these threads ought to be closed. This one is in Fermentation & Yeast and sanitation has little to do with that. The other thread is in the beginners forum, where issues like that are common and in the right place.

We shouldn't lose the wisdom of these 2 threads so i do not suggest deleting one of them.

It is just really bad forum etiquette to have double threads running. And a waste of time.
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[EDIT] Looks like the other thread continues. Let's stop posting on this one.
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