Home brew taste

Hello all, been "trolling" around for a few weeks stealing some tips here and there.

My basic question is around the 'homebrew taste' - that *insert techie name here* indefinable something that seems to divide pub/shop bottled beers against homebrews. My dads and mates homebrews have all had it.

I'm on my 2nd brew, and couldn't resist a quick taste from the fermenter last night. Like the first brew it has that *insert techie name here*.

I've started on kits, the first a Coopers English Bitter tin using granulated sugar, the second a Better Bitter IPA pack, using brewing sugar.

Neither are nasty, but they have that *insert techie name here*. Drank back to back with a shop bottled beer, the first batch is really quite nice.

Why? What is it? How do I get rid? When I eventually go solo and start with all raw materials, how do I avoid it?

I realise this question has probably been asked, but not knowing the *insert techie name here* it's difficult to find. :fro:

[and note, my place of work are internet nazi's and I can't spend hours browsing ]

Pitching the proper amount of yeast is usually the first start. Most of us start off just tossing in the yeast from the kit, but that may not be the correct amount. http://www.mrmalty.com/ will help with that.

Next up is fermentation temp. If we ferment too hot we can get bad flavors we don't like in our beers.

The next is freshness of ingredients. Try to use good quality, fresh, malt extracts and only use things like table sugar when you absolutely need it for the style. It's even better if you can go all grain, but that can introduce it's own problems.

Then we have time. Letting the beer sit for the right amount of time before bottling/kegging will help it clarify which I believe has a direct effect on flavor. This is also where things like cold crashing or using clarifying agents comes into play.

The quest for great beer is as complex as you want to make it.

I will add that change your process to adding the majority of the extract late in the boil, like the last 5 minutes or even at flame out. Take 1/3-1/2 and add at beginning and add balance at end. This will prevent a lot of the carmalization that occurs and maillard reaction that can create that taste when extract is boiled too long.

Personally, I've never experienced the *insert techie name here* flavor in any of my beers.

What kind of taste is it? Try to describe it?

And what exactly did the kits consist of and what is "brewing sugar"?

I don't have an odd home-brew flavor in any of my beers. While commercial beers are better, I will catch up to their standards eventually. I imagine something is going wrong here..

The way to fix the *insert techie name here* taste is to *insert techie solution here*.

Seriously - you're probably just using old kits with old yeast and old extract. See if you can find a recipe you like using steeped grains and extract, and try to get all fresh ingredients. Add most of the extract super-late in the boil (like 10 minutes left) and ferment in a really cool spot (try your cold cellar or garage). You'll probably never taste that *insert techie name here* taste again. I can give you a cream ale recipe that pleases both BMC and craft enthusiasts alike.

Also more helpful than typing *insert techie name here* is an actual description of the taste. Like "banana", or "buttery", or "weird plasticy taste". If you described it you'd get way more specific advice.

DonMagee said:

Pitching the proper amount of yeast is usually the first start. Most of us start off just tossing in the yeast from the kit, but that may not be the correct amount. http://www.mrmalty.com/ will help with that.

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Ta!

DonMagee said:

Next up is fermentation temp. If we ferment too hot we can get bad flavors we don't like in our beers.

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First batch 'cooked' at bob on 25°C; this second batch is much lower at ~22.5°C

DonMagee said:

The next is freshness of ingredients. Try to use good quality, fresh, malt extracts and only use things like table sugar when you absolutely need it for the style. It's even better if you can go all grain, but that can introduce it's own problems.

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How do you know about freshness on a kit brew, barring the sell by date? I do intend to go from scratch next year (in fact, I intend to grow my own hops). As for the sugar, I intend different types.

DonMagee said:

Then we have time. Letting the beer sit for the right amount of time before bottling/kegging will help it clarify which I believe has a direct effect on flavor. This is also where things like cold crashing or using clarifying agents comes into play.

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Must resist.....


Note: the homebrew flavour is a tang on first tasting, not metallic as such, but 'homebrewish'; hell, it's even possible it's the actual real flavour - it's a fairly dark beer and fairly flavoursome. It's certainly not burned caramelisation, as I didn't boil (there were no instructions to, IIRC).

There's no unpleasant sour tastes (I don't believe that it's off in anyway), the priming seems to have gone just right, and fermentation was as I imagined it was meant ot be (from reading various web pages and browsing on here).

Maybe it just needs time to mature...?

paulster2626 said:

Also more helpful than typing *insert techie name here* is an actual description of the taste. Like "banana", or "buttery", or "weird plasticy taste". If you described it you'd get way more specific advice.

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I realised after pressing submit that I may be in for a flaming! I thought it might be a fairly common tang, as I've tasted it in other homebrews - I've tried to explain a bit in the previous post

Tang....you mean hop bitternes?

Let it mature of course, but also I've found that those unexplainable weird tastes are most likely not-so-fresh extract. Instead of buying a kit, try first:
a) Finding a busy homebrew shop with lots of customers.
b) Using off-the-shelf extracts, yeasts, and ingredients to mimic the kit you're interested in making.

You're shooting for fresher extract. It'll make a difference. Check out the recipe section for some 5-star extract recipes and try that. Then come back and let us know how it went.

whoaru99 said:

Tang....you mean hop bitternes?

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No, I don't think so... I've tried the newest brew that has a similar tang and so I'm going to add one of the hop teabags at the end to see what that does to it.

What is the description for a yeast tang? It looks clear, smells ok, so I don't think it's that.

paulster2626 said:

Let it mature of course, but also I've found that those unexplainable weird tastes are most likely not-so-fresh extract. Instead of buying a kit, try first:
a) Finding a busy homebrew shop with lots of customers.
b) Using off-the-shelf extracts, yeasts, and ingredients to mimic the kit you're interested in making.

You're shooting for fresher extract. It'll make a difference. Check out the recipe section for some 5-star extract recipes and try that. Then come back and let us know how it went.

Click to expand...

That's my next phase.

Thanks for the advice to crapply worded queries all!

I know exactly what you mean. It's a taste that can easily be perceived as, "this was homebrewed wasn't it?" You can easily distinguish it from a blind taste test against a commercial brew of the same style. Something yeasty or twangy about it. Maybe it's the freshness or crispness of the beer.

I have yet to make a beer that has commercial style quality. I just switched to a new distributor and way I'm making my kits. Hopefully this will improve on the taste.

I too am waiting for that special moment when I make commercial equivalent brew, and can confidently say "this is damn good!"

I have experienced that taste in homebrew.

I think the ones I've tasted that screamed "homebrew taste" to me where made using cans of extract, especially John Bull and Cooper's. I think it's the canned extract that gives that "canned cooked extract homebrew" taste. Fermenting it above 65 degrees F makes it even worse, and more "twangy".

If you use grains, spray dried malt extract (dried extract called "DME"), hops, better quality yeast (NOT Munton's or Coopers), and good water, that "homebrew" taste goes away.

If google is right, 25C is too hot. Shoot for 20-21C (68-70F). Getting hot than that is going to produce a lot of flavors from the yeast which will probably not suit the style and make it taste 'estery, yeasty, or fruity'.

I also forgot about the late extract (I have been all grain for a while now). Adding the majority of the extract late in the boil will keep the color lighter and helps with the flavor. So that's a good route to try like the others have said. Also, when it comes to fresh, the best indicator of fresh is high turnover in the store. If the shelves are rotating stock, then the chances are high fresh stock is coming in.

I really would encourage anyone to 'build their own kit' from the recipes on this site. It's really easy to buy some good malt extract, a tiny bit of steeping grains, hops, and some good yeast and make great beer. The people here will also be more than happy to help you formulate a recipe if you have questions too.

You could do something simple like

(US measurements because I'm not good with metric)
Recipe: Extract Pale Example
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: Extract

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 8.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.7 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L - Steep at 150F for 30 minutes.
2 lbs 8.0 oz Extra Light Dry Extract - Boil for 60 minutes. (always make sure to turn off your heat when mixing in extract)
1.25 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min
4 lbs Extra Light Dry Extract Boil for 15 min
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast - Cool wort to at least 75F (68-70 better) before pitching yeast.
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days


That should make a solid American Pale Ale. (Might want to get some opinions on it as I threw it together in like 10 minutes).

OP - you are bound to get some funky beer at those temps. 22.5 C = 72.5 F. Yeast created heat while it ferments, so your actual temp will be higher than that. For most ale yeast, you should be targeting 18C or so.

billl said:

OP - you are bound to get some funky beer at those temps. 22.5 C = 72.5 F. Yeast created heat while it ferments, so your actual temp will be higher than that. For most ale yeast, you should be targeting 18C or so.

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I've got an internal digi thermometer, so it should be the true temp.

DonMagee said:

...That should make a solid American Pale Ale. (Might want to get some opinions on it as I threw it together in like 10 minutes).

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Thanks, will try that - how does IPA differ from APA?!

billl said:

OP - you are bound to get some funky beer at those temps. 22.5 C = 72.5 F. Yeast created heat while it ferments, so your actual temp will be higher than that. For most ale yeast, you should be targeting 18C or so.

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You'll be amazed at how just putting the fermenter in a big tub (like anything 6 inches wider than your bucket) of tap water can keep the temps down. Not only does the water stay about a degree C colder than ambient air (evaporation) but the water buffers against temperature rises in the fermenting beer.

onerainmaker said:

It's certainly not burned caramelisation, as I didn't boil (there were no instructions to, IIRC).

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not sure if folks missed that little detail... if i understand correctly, you are using a no-boil kit. add a can of pre-hopped liquid extract to water, mix, add yeast - correct? if so, this is the paint-by-numbers equivalent of making beer. a great way to start and to learn techniques like sanitation, but you can't expect the mona lisa.

your beer will improve greatly by moving to a recipe that calls for boiling. from your no-boil kits, next step up is partial boil: add your extract to boiling water, throw in hops at various times, cool that mix, then make up your total volume with cool water. this approach allows you to choose the types of extract and hops you want (i.e. fresh), and allows you a lot more flexibility in the kinds of beer you choose to brew. as DonMagee called it, you can "build your own kit" by selecting only what you want.

next step beyond that is to use steeping grains to give your beer more and unique flavors and color.

sweetcell said:

not sure if folks missed that little detail... if i understand correctly, you are using a no-boil kit. add a can of pre-hopped liquid extract to water, mix, add yeast - correct? if so, this is the paint-by-numbers equivalent of making beer. a great way to start and to learn techniques like sanitation, but you can't expect the mona lisa.

your beer will improve greatly by moving to a recipe that calls for boiling. from your no-boil kits, next step up is partial boil: add your extract to boiling water, throw in hops at various times, cool that mix, then make up your total volume with cool water. this approach allows you to choose the types of extract and hops you want (i.e. fresh), and allows you a lot more flexibility in the kinds of beer you choose to brew. as DonMagee called it, you can "build your own kit" by selecting only what you want.

next step beyond that is to use steeping grains to give your beer more and unique flavors and color.

Click to expand...

Thanks SC, I realise that I wasn't going to get perfection, but I probably also believed the hype about how wonderful the brew kit was (ther was a lot of talk around about how they've moved on and taste like beer ought to).

Defo next brew will be more manual, and hopefully I can have graduated on to something 'proper' by the time my own hops have been harvested.

I aim to start the next brew as soon as the IPA is bottled, probably in 10 days time... new baby on the way, so I'm hardly going to go out much....!

onerainmaker said:

I've got an internal digi thermometer, so it should be the true temp.



Thanks, will try that - how does IPA differ from APA?!

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I'm not a style expert, but to me the difference is a focus on american hops and slightly less malty/carmel flavors. It's probably best to go with the actual style descriptions. To me however, there isn't all that much difference.

APA - http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a
IPA - http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php

DonMagee said:

APA - http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a
IPA - http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php

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http://www.bjcp.org/docs/2008_stylebook.pdf

Now THAT is a link :rockin:

Ithangewe

Yooper said:

I have experienced that taste in homebrew.

I think the ones I've tasted that screamed "homebrew taste" to me where made using cans of extract, especially John Bull and Cooper's. I think it's the canned extract that gives that "canned cooked extract homebrew" taste. Fermenting it above 65 degrees F makes it even worse, and more "twangy".

If you use grains, spray dried malt extract (dried extract called "DME"), hops, better quality yeast (NOT Munton's or Coopers), and good water, that "homebrew" taste goes away.

Click to expand...

I know that taste, as it was very common years ago before the tremendous increase in ingredients that we now have was made available to home brewing. Only basic prehopped, canned malt extracts were available to me at the time.


Over the years I got to accept it as normal until I went to all grains using, as stated by Yooper, freshly crushed grains, roasts, properly balanced water and quality yeasts..

If temperatures are kept under control and recipes don't vary widely from the norms the beers I make today no longer have that green beer twang or the overly yeasty background that was common years ago. (BURP)

Thanks to all the homebrewers out there that provided the market demand for better ingredients. If it wasn't for all you homebrewers and your desire to make better beers I'd still be tin canning my way with stale roofing tar extracts.

bosco

onerainmaker said:

Thanks SC, I realise that I wasn't going to get perfection, but I probably also believed the hype about how wonderful the brew kit was (ther was a lot of talk around about how they've moved on and taste like beer ought to).

Defo next brew will be more manual, and hopefully I can have graduated on to something 'proper' by the time my own hops have been harvested.

Click to expand...

kits have come a long way. once upon a time they were undrinkable, now they're quite decent... but still have that "homebrew taste".

moving on to partial-boil "self-made" kits will teach you a lot about brewing... prepare to enter the next level. site like www.brewmasterswarehouse.com and austinhomebrew.com let you buy ingredients by the ounce, so you can get only exactly what you want. even more online (and offline!) shops sell their own kits that they put together on demand, as opposed to the mr. beer/coopers/etc kits that could have been assembled a year ago and have been sitting on hot shelves ever since.

you'll definitely be there by the time your hops are harvested (which i'm assuming is either next year, or at best in 6 months if you're in the southern hemisphere).

DonMagee said:

I'm not a style expert, but to me the difference is a focus on american hops and slightly less malty/carmel flavors. It's probably best to go with the actual style descriptions. To me however, there isn't all that much difference.

APA - http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a
IPA - http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php

Click to expand...

indeed. the way i look at it is that they are a continuum, with less hoppy = APA and more hoppy = IPA. the cutoff between the two is quite arbitrary. is it a hoppy APA or a low-intensity IPA? who cares, as long as it's good beer

I have been brewing for a couple years now. The biggest factors that have played a roll in off flavors in any of my brews were 1) Crappy chlorinated tap water, producing some plastic astringency like bandaids. 2) warmer than suggested fermentation temps, making some pretty wild astringent ester's and phenol's. 3) Green beer, young beer has got a funk about it, unless its a Hefe.

Take care of your yeast (temp, pitch amount, viability) and sanitation.