Water Addition Advice - 1st AG Batch

Hi all, new all-grain brewer here. I'm about ready to start my first all-grain batch, a Sierra Madre Kit from NB. It contains 10 lb 2-row malt and 0.75 lb 60L Crystal malt. My question is on my water addition targets....

I'm in Omaha and my water report chemistry is as such:

46 ppm Ca
13 ppm Mg
90 ppm Na
24 ppm Cl
110 ppm SO4
107 ppm Total Alkalinity

With no salt or acid adjustments, using the EZ water calc spreadsheet I have an estimated residual alkalinity of 66, a Room-Temp Mash pH of 5.58, and a Cl/SO4 ratio of 0.22.

My thought was to add a bit of CaCl2 to reduce the Mash pH, to bring up the Ca, and to bring the Cl/SO4 ratio up a bit. Perhaps add some acid. Looking at the nomograph in "how to brew," it appears that the pH is already too low (it seems to say a pH of ~5.7 is optimal with a RA around 0), but the EZ water calc spreadsheet RA/pH doesn't seem to correlate with the nomograph (if I make CaCl2 additions to drop the RA, I'm at a pH of ~5.5). What would be a good RA and Mash pH target for this Pale Ale? Cl/SO4 ratio?

I've had pretty decent results following the guidelines in the EZ water spreadsheet. A pH around 5.5 is good, I wouldn't worry too much there. The lower the chloride to sulfate ratio, the more pronounced the hop flavor is said to be (I personally haven't experimented with this much). It's my understanding that those values (.77 to enhance bitterness and 1.33 to accentuate maltiness) are merely guidelines. Sorry, I'm not much help, but I think your beer will be fine. Being that this is your first AG, you'll have plenty of other stuff to worry about that will likely have a larger impact than subtle water adjustments.

Good luck on the first batch! BTW- I save my water calculations into a recipe file that I create for each batch of beer. I figure this will allow me to make modifications as I gain experience.

Without getting into the specific math of it, in order to get exactly what your looking for you'd have to cut with RO or Distilled (to reduce your hardness) and then build it back up a little. Honestly, that water looks pretty good though. Focus on the process and leave the water chemistry go for now (I don't think I would even mess with it much once I got my head around AG). Your mash will perform just fine at 5.5, you could probably ad some CaCl if you wanted. It would give you a little more Ca for the yeast, lower the mash pH, and make your beer seem more malty.

I wasted a lot of time trying to get those spreadsheets and RA nomographs to work....and it gets even harder if you actually check your pH with a meter because you realize they don't work If your water is free of chloromine, it isn't horrible. if you boil it before hand, a lot of the alkalinity will likely drop out but that might not even be necessary. I'd say just brew with it but talk to your LHBS or other local brewers and see what they suggest. If that isn't an option get some RO water and follow the recommendations here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Water chemistry does make a difference but it is subtle compared to other parts of your brewing process.

gbx said:

I wasted a lot of time trying to get those spreadsheets and RA nomographs to work....and it gets even harder if you actually check your pH with a meter because you realize they don't work If your water is free of chloromine, it isn't horrible. if you boil it before hand, a lot of the alkalinity will likely drop out but that might not even be necessary. I'd say just brew with it but talk to your LHBS or other local brewers and see what they suggest. If that isn't an option get some RO water and follow the recommendations here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Water chemistry does make a difference but it is subtle compared to other parts of your brewing process.

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Good point on the chloramine. Gosh, he's got good water though, I'd try Campden tablets to take the chloramine out.

Your water looks goods except for high levels of Na and SO4. Should be fine for hoppy ales, but for lagers I definitely would use at least 50% RO/distilled. And since you're new to AG, worry about fine-tuning the water later. For now, just watch the pH.

p.s. stop using those nomographs -- there are much better and more accurate free tools available (Brunwater and EZ Water).

p.p.s. don't target a RA value. It's mash pH to worry about. Target 5.2 to 5.5 give or take.

SpeedYellow said:

p.s. stop using those nomographs -- there are much better and more accurate free tools available (Brunwater and EZ Water).

p.p.s. don't target a RA value. It's mash pH to worry about. Target 5.2 to 5.5 give or take.

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I haven't been able to get any of those spreadsheets to work when checking my pH with a meter and there is debate on what mash pH you should target. Its not an exact science despite what the books might make it seem. If your water doesn't have chloromine, brew with it as nothing in it is too out of range and a decent SO4/Cl ratio for a pale ale. If you do want to mess with your water, see the water primer I linked above, it is the best source of water chemistry info you will find.

gbx said:

I haven't been able to get any of those spreadsheets to work when checking my pH with a meter and there is debate on what mash pH you should target...

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What reputable sources are saying that we should target something outside of 5.2-5.5?

But I agree with you that the spreadsheets are not the end-all answer to the pH question. But they're much more useful than the nomograph.

SpeedYellow said:

What reputable sources are saying that we should target something outside of 5.2-5.5?

But I agree with you that the spreadsheets are not the end-all answer to the pH question. But they're much more useful than the nomograph.

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I asked the same thing about pH here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/index28.html#post3835639

For a Sierra Nevada clone u would not add CaCl, you want that enhanced happiness, not the maltyness the Cl will bring out. You have plenty on Na to back up the sweetness. Dough in with water as is and adjust with lactic acid. Like this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html

Or you can just spend an extra $5 for spring water and eliminate these wild variables with water profiles

It's definitely the lazy route, and it's not perfect water chemistry for mashing, but it works great for me because I have chloramined city water

Unibrow said:

Or you can just spend an extra $5 for spring water and eliminate these wild variables with water profiles

It's definitely the lazy route, and it's not perfect water chemistry for mashing, but it works great for me because I have chloramined city water

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Spring water is typical loaded with minerals. . . typically more than what we want to use to brew with. If your going to spend money on actually buying water, I'd suggest using RO and learning how to build the water up using CaCl, gypsum, epsom salts, etc.

rjschroed said:

Spring water is typical loaded with minerals. . . typically more than what we want to use to brew with. If your going to spend money on actually buying water, I'd suggest using RO and learning how to build the water up using CaCl, gypsum, epsom salts, etc.

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Yes, me too.

Except for epsom salts, that is. I see no reason to ever use epsom salts.

But "spring water" is just water from someplace else other than your tap. It's not better, or worse. Use RO water, or distilled water, if you're going to buy water.

Yooper said:

Except for epsom salts, that is. I see no reason to ever use epsom salts.

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Epsom salts (MgSO4) are good for increasing SO4 without increasing Ca. Use very sparingly though, threshold for taste for Mg is pretty low. . . 30 ppm I think. So, the only reason to ever use them would be for creating a super hoppy beer with a Cl:SO4 ratio of something like 1:5 or greater. . . which is extreme. Why not use gypsum? well, you don't really want to go much beyond 150 ppm of Ca. The scenario is a bit extreme, but one that I've run into a few times. . . I'm sure you could probably do everything you've ever wanted without using epsom salts though.

So, after reading through this thread and the water chemistry primer (again with more thought), I'm now thinking that I'm going to start by cutting my water with 50% RO. I may then add in a bit of CaCl2 to bring the Ca up (the Cl/SO4 ratio would be around midrange), and of course I did forget to mention that my water also has Chloramine and I use campden tablets every time I brew. I would then have lactic acid at the ready to adjust my mash pH downwards if the room temp mash pH was above ~5.5. I did just invest in a pH meter and calibration standards.

Would it be worth my while to add a nominal amount of acid (say ~1mL in 7.5 gal) to bring it to a predicted pH 5.4? The thing I'm not really clear on is whether I can effectively adjust mash pH as the mash is happening. If it's say 0.1 high, how much acid might I add to bring the pH down...do I work mL by mL?

When I add lactic, I do so in the hlt. I think that amount of lactic acid, wIth your water, is perfectly fine.

I agree that Epsom salts would increase the Mg, and not the Ca, but I have never seen a situation where that would be a good thing. 100 ppm of calcium would be a good thing in most all cases, and over 10 ppm Mg would be bad for most beers.

For how much acid to use in the mash you can use one of the various excel sheets, or the simple equation I posted a link to in this thread.

WoodlandBrew said:

I agree that Epsom salts would increase the Mg, and not the Ca, but I have never seen a situation where that would be a good thing. 100 ppm of calcium would be a good thing in most all cases, and over 10 ppm Mg would be bad for most beers.

For how much acid to use in the mash you can use one of the various excel sheets, or the simple equation I posted a link to in this thread.

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I agree with the 100 ppm of Ca, I always target 100 ppm Ca. Most of everything I've read claims you want to be between 50 and 150 ppm Ca with anything over 250 considered "detrimental." So epsom can become useful if I'm targeting something like 150 ppm Ca (which is the upper recommended limit for arguments sake), 300 ppm SO4, 100 ppm Cl with a pale beer built up from RO. Canning salt and epsom salt can be used in conjunction to help keep down Ca levels while raising Cl and SO4 levels. Use both in moderation. Also I've always heard that under 30 ppm Mg is fine. Honestly, I don't get that close to 30 ppm Mg, it doesn't take much Epsom salts to help boost SO4.

Here is a great resource for understanding what each ion does in your beer and it's recommended level:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

Here is the calculator I use:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

Epsom salts to get to 300ppm of SO4?

Quote from the site you linked:
Magnisium- recommended 10-30, Levels higher than 125 ppm have a laxative and diuretic affect.

WoodlandBrew said:

Epsom salts to get to 300ppm of SO4?

Quote from the site you linked:
Magnisium- recommended 10-30, Levels higher than 125 ppm have a laxative and diuretic affect.

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gypsum gets you most of the way there, epsom salts can be used to give you a boost. I thought i made that clear. But since i seemed to have left it a little questionable I'll work out an example. . . If I'm targeting 150 ppm Ca, 300 ppm SO4, 100 ppm Cl for a pale beer (like an IPA with a SRM around 6-8) and all I have available to me is chalk(which I won't use here), Baking soda, CaCl, Gypsum, Epsom salt, and canning salt. I'm likely to build my water from RO for a 10 gallon finished batch of beer like this without using Epsom salts or canning salts:

3g Baking Soda (NaHCO3) - to build some alkalinity in the beer
39g Gypsum CaSO4 - adds Ca, a vital yeast nutrient, and SO4, which accentuates hops
15g CaCl2 - adds Ca, again vital yeast nutrient, and Cl, which accentuates a rounder more malty taste

My Mineral profile now looks something like this (assuming RO water is free of minerals, which I know it's not but it mostly is and we will work off the assumption that it contains no minerals to start with):

Ca: 183 ppm
Mg: 0 ppm
SO4: 303 ppm
Na: 12 ppm
Cl: 100 ppm
HCO3: 30 ppm
Alkalinity 25 ppm

Okay, so I will walk you through how I built this (any all the rest of my water). I always start with alkalinity. For a pale beer it needs to be low. I can do this 2 ways; with Chalk (CaCO3) or Baking Soda (NaHCO3). Since I know that for this instance I'm going to have plenty of Ca, I don't need to add any by using Chalk. I choose to add 3 grams of baking soda. This adds Na and HCO3 (or alkalinity) to my water. The Na can add a roundness and accentuate malt flavors in beer, but not at 12 ppm that we have here. For a pale beer we want between 0-50 alkalinity. The roll of alkalinity is to buffer the mash pH, which can become very acidic in the presence of toasted, caramel, and especially roasted malts. Choose this level based on the beer ingredients your using. Next I want to work on building up SO4 and Cl (It doesn't really matter which I do first). Gypsum is ALWAYS first choice for adding SO4 to water, so 39g gypsum(CaSO4) goes in to get us in the neighborhood of 300 ppm SO4. This addition has also added a significant amount of Ca to our water. Next we add 15g CaCl to get to 100 ppm Cl. At the same time, we have again added Ca to your beer.

At this piont, for this example without using Epsom salts or canning salt I'm done. It would probably be okay but there are a few things I would nit pick at here.

1) That's really too much Ca
2) Mg is an important yeast nutrient in small amounts (10 -20 ppm)

So what I propose is to take out a small portion gypsum (CaSO4) and build SO4 back up with Epsom Salts (MgSO4). At the same time, I can take some CaCl out and build the Cl back up with some Canning salt (NaCl). It would look like this:

3g Baking Soda
32g Gypsum
10g CaCl
10g Epsom Salt
4g Canning Salt

Which results in a water profile that looks like this:

Ca: 141 ppm
Mg: 14 ppm
SO4: 302 ppm
Na: 34 ppm (I don't like to take this much higher in a beer designed to be highly bitter)
Cl: 100 ppm
HCO3: 30 ppm
Alkalinity: 25 ppm

Maybe it's my personal preference but this looks better to me.

Lastly a few notes about this. These numbers are calculated from 19 gallons of total water, which is about the amount I have to use on brew day to create 10 gallons of finished beer. Each salt additive needs to be split proportionately between the mash and the boil. I wanna take a minute to note that the amounts of SO4 and Cl aren't as important as the ratio. This would create a 3:1 ratio. . . accentuating a highly bitter beer. The question you should be asking then is why use such high numbers? In reality, I don't think I'd go 100 ppm Cl to 300 ppm SO4. the problem changes a little (but not much) if I drop the Cl down to 60 ppm (which is a 1:5 ratio of Cl:SO4, which I have done before). Na (Soduim) can cause a beer to seem more rounded or malty sweet. . . 34 ppm is probably insignificant to that but I wouldn't push it much farther unless that was my intent (Palmer claims the effect takes place between 70 ppm and 140 ppm). Building water isn't an exact sciences. . . there are more variables than what we can account for.

Hopefully that clears up more questions than it created.

I'd really hesitate to use 100 ppm of chloride, as that is the uppermost limit. I'm also not a fan of that much sulfate.

Magnesium is provided by the malt so you don't need any added, although it's not too bad in small amounts (25-30 ppm).

I'm a big believer in "less is more" and think that chloride should be 50 ppm or so or less for the most part.

babayaga said:

So, after reading through this thread and the water chemistry primer (again with more thought), I'm now thinking that I'm going to start by cutting my water with 50% RO. I may then add in a bit of CaCl2 to bring the Ca up (the Cl/SO4 ratio would be around midrange), and of course I did forget to mention that my water also has Chloramine and I use campden tablets every time I brew. I would then have lactic acid at the ready to adjust my mash pH downwards if the room temp mash pH was above ~5.5. I did just invest in a pH meter and calibration standards.

Would it be worth my while to add a nominal amount of acid (say ~1mL in 7.5 gal) to bring it to a predicted pH 5.4? The thing I'm not really clear on is whether I can effectively adjust mash pH as the mash is happening. If it's say 0.1 high, how much acid might I add to bring the pH down...do I work mL by mL?

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You got the idea. Watch that Cl:SO4 ratio(I'd suggest 1:2 or 1:1.5) and make sure you get at least 50 ppm of Ca in the beer too. You might need some gypsum as well. There isn't anything really out of whack with your water. . . I'd like to see a little less Sodium (Na) but, like I said, it's good water.

Yooper said:

I'd really hesitate to use 100 ppm of chloride, as that is the uppermost limit. I'm also not a fan of that much sulfate.

Magnesium is provided by the malt so you don't need any added, although it's not too bad in small amounts (25-30 ppm).

I'm a big believer in "less is more" and think that chloride should be 50 ppm or so or less for the most part.

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Right on! Except I always thought 250 ppm Cl is the upper most limit. Those numbers I used are a little silly but made it easier for me to illustrate where it might be good to use epsom salts. Just gotta find what works for you and go with it

rjschroed said:

You got the idea. Watch that Cl:SO4 ratio(I'd suggest 1:2 or 1:1.5) and make sure you get at least 50 ppm of Ca in the beer too. You might need some gypsum as well. There isn't anything really out of whack with your water. . . I'd like to see a little less Sodium (Na) but, like I said, it's good water.

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Well, worse, I'm going to say to ignore the cl/s04 ratio.

That really isn't important, and it has no bearing on the beer. That's pretty "old school" thought, where a cl:s04 ratio was thought to be be better for malty beers vs hoppy beers.

A nice number for your goals is what you need, not what the numbers are in relation to each other.

But I agree targeting a minimum of 50 ppm of Ca is optimum.

I've never used more than about 10 grams of gypsum in a 10 gallon batch, and more often 3-5 grams for my IPAs, so I'm quite surprised to see an addition of 32 grams in the above example!

I agree Cl/SO4 ratio is not so important It's more about the individual contributions than the balance of the two.

I hope no one has seen rj's post and been mislead that MgSO4 is a suitable salt for boosting SO4 levels.

I've brewed with Epsom salts. I know what the are good for, and what they taste like, and I don't recommended that anyone use them for brewing. Magnesium tastes bitter and astringent.

The numbers can be a distraction to the actual product, but since we are crunching numbers...
By adding MgSO4, if the Mg level is brought to the "maximum" of 30ppm then the SO4 contribution is 154 ppm. When using CaSO4, adding enough to get 150ppm of Ca (the "max") means you add 350ppm of SO4. (which is a ridiculously high amount) The point is that there is much more head room with CaSO4 than there is with MgSO4. I have never seen a case where the Ca level would be too high if the SO4, Cl or some other mineral wasn't already out of the park, in which case RO would be in order.

My point is that I have never seen a real world reason to use MgSO4. There is no situation I have ever seen where you could add too much CaSO4 to RO and have too much Ca and not enough SO4 for the beer.

Basic water chemistry is not rocket science. Now aj and those guys, they bring rocket science to water chemistry.

Over time I have found that less is oftem more when it comes to brewing salts. When I first learned about salts I was very exited about them, but it's easy to get carried away in the theoretical until you have some solid beers under your belt.

For me, NaCHO3 is for making muffins, NaCl sweetens up dinner, and MgSO4 is nice to soak your feet in.

WoodlandBrew said:

Basic water chemistry is not rocket science. Now aj and those guys, they bring rocket science to water chemistry.

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The problem is its not a science. Its more of an art based on science. Guys like Palmer try to make it rocket science with predictive formulas and residual alkalinity and classic brewing city/classic style BS. But its not, its a complex biological system that cannot be accurately modeled to the 2 decimal places those spreadsheets calculate to. I wouldn't put AJ in that camp at all as I don't think he has ever claimed to have accurately modeled mash pH. Maybe Palmer is a brewing Einstein but then AJ is Planck and mash pH is statistical.

I think the OP's water is fine for a 1st AG. Who knows the daily fluctuations of the ions anyways. The Ca is a tiny bit low, the Na and Alkalinity are high...but nothing is so out of range that it needs to be worried about on a 1st all grain batch. Get rid of the chloromine and just brew.

I want to make it very clear that I seriously hope I haven't misled anyone into thinking it's okay to dump a bunch of epsom salts into their beer. It's not. I thought I made that clear, I'm sorry if my concept, example, or what I was trying to convey has been misunderstood. I'm done trying to explain myself, if what I laid out went misunderstood then odds are I can't help to make it understood. Find a book, website, or someone else. I'm done. So that there is no question about this anymore:

USE EPSOM SALTS AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION. IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE THEM, USE THEM SPARINGLY.

gbx said:

The problem is its not a science. Its more of an art based on science. Guys like Palmer try to make it rocket science with predictive formulas and residual alkalinity and classic brewing city/classic style BS. But its not, its a complex biological system that cannot be accurately modeled to the 2 decimal places those spreadsheets calculate to. I wouldn't put AJ in that camp at all as I don't think he has ever claimed to have accurately modeled mash pH. Maybe Palmer is a brewing Einstein but then AJ is Planck and mash pH is statistical.

I think the OP's water is fine for a 1st AG. Who knows the daily fluctuations of the ions anyways. The Ca is a tiny bit low, the Na and Alkalinity are high...but nothing is so out of range that it needs to be worried about on a 1st all grain batch. Get rid of the chloromine and just brew.

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I'm sorry, that didn't come across the way I wanted it to. I wasn't saying that AJ can predict pH, just saying that AJ knows his stuff. Maybe what I should have said is "What we are talking about here is the most basic of basic water chemistry, some of the other people here take water chemistry to another level."

I agree that it's brewing is more of an art. The exact numbers don't matter as much as spread sheets may leave you to believe. Also, I'm with you that trying to match a city's water is not the best way to approach water chemistry.

Yooper said:

Well, worse, I'm going to say to ignore the cl/s04 ratio.

That really isn't important, and it has no bearing on the beer. That's pretty "old school" thought, where a cl:s04 ratio was thought to be be better for malty beers vs hoppy beers.

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Can you point me toward a source of information where I can read or hear about the new school ideas? I'm always up for hearing other options/opinions.

WoodlandBrew said:

I'm sorry, that didn't come across the way I wanted it to. I wasn't saying that AJ can predict pH, just saying that AJ knows his stuff. Maybe what I should have said is "What we are talking about here is the most basic of basic water chemistry, some of the other people here take water chemistry to another level."

I agree that it's brewing is more of an art. The exact numbers don't matter as much as spread sheets may leave you to believe. Also, I'm with you that trying to match a city's water is not the best way to approach water chemistry.

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It was more comment on the use of the word "science" than anything else you wrote. I disagree with a lot of the conventional homebrewing water chemistry wisdom - specifically the concept of RA and as someone who lives in a place that RO flows from the taps, i have to question the minimum ion concentrations that are often quoted. ...and yeah...the classic city stuff is complete fantasy (unreferenced fake history, BS styles, impossible profiles) and won't help you brew any better.

Agreed on MgSO4, NaCl and NaHCO3. Get the lowest carbonate water and supplement the Ca with CaCl and CaSO4. Yeast nutrient can provide anything else you need. If you were brewing huge commercial batches of the same recipe with the same malt every day, you might be able to dial in your water profile perfectly but as a homebrewer doing 5 gallon batches with different malt and different recipes every time I brew I don't believe its possible to anything better than just ball park (vs the 2 decimal pts the spreadsheets calculate to). Your daily water profile isn't accurately known, the margin of error measuring salts is too great, different malts will behave differently, etc

gbx said:

It was more comment on the use of the word "science" than anything else you wrote. I disagree with a lot of the conventional homebrewing water chemistry wisdom - specifically the concept of RA and as someone who lives in a place that RO flows from the taps, i have to question the minimum ion concentrations that are often quoted. ...and yeah...the classic city stuff is complete fantasy (unreferenced fake history, BS styles, impossible profiles) and won't help you brew any better.

Agreed on MgSO4, NaCl and NaHCO3. Get the lowest carbonate water and supplement the Ca with CaCl and CaSO4. Yeast nutrient can provide anything else you need. If you were brewing huge commercial batches of the same recipe with the same malt every day, you might be able to dial in your water profile perfectly but as a homebrewer doing 5 gallon batches with different malt and different recipes every time I brew I don't believe its possible to anything better than just ball park (vs the 2 decimal pts the spreadsheets calculate to). Your daily water profile isn't accurately known, the margin of error measuring salts is too great, different malts will behave differently, etc

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I don't understand residual alkalinity well enough to really have an opinion on it, but other than that small exception I agree with you 100%

GBX has it correct that there are too many variables in all the ingredients used in brewing to assume that any program or prediction is going to be precise. Getting within a tenth with a pH prediction starts to border on luck with all that ingredient variability. Showing predictions with a precision in the hundreths is folly. I do disagree with GBX that this is more art than science. There is more than enough evidence and knowledge to show that it is FAR more a science than art. The art comes in deciphering the nuances that make great beer. The proper application of science will at least get you in the ballpark.

Magnesium is unnecessary in brewing water. The malt provides magnesium to the wort. But, this is not to say that you shouldn't use it. In beers that focus on bittering and hoppiness, I find that Mg is a welcome compliment when used at low concentration. Its sour and bitter flavor fits in those bitter beers and adds character. I do keep Mg at 30 ppm or less in those beers.

The confusion with chloride is the result of an unfortunate reference in How to Brew. It cites the Secondary Standard for drinking water that lists the recommended allowable chloride concentration as 250 ppm. That is the point where the drinking water becomes unpleasant or undesirable to drink. It is not an acceptable target for brewing good beer. ALL the notable brewing waters of the world have less than 100 ppm Cl. A notable exception is Dortmund water that is known for its 'minerally' character (130 ppm). Therefore, its clear that history shows that 250 ppm is not an acceptable or desirable upper limit.

The concept of the sulfate/chloride ratio has some merit. The problem comes when brewers try to apply it under all conditions. When the concentrations of those ions are either very high or very low, the ratio is meaningless. I recommend that brewers consider the ratio valid when the chloride concentration is between 25 and 100 ppm.