extract v. partial mash brewing

Partial seems intriguing and somewhat more complicated v. extract brewing which so far has been pretty simple. So is there a difference in taste? or is it the craft that people are after when they brew with partial or all grain?

From what I can tell is u have a little more control on taste with partial mash and all grain u have full controll

i think that PM tastes better but that is my opinion and AG tastes better yet if you do it right

For me the biggest reason to go from extract to PM was being able to use grains that must be mashed to convert (e.g. wheats, rye, victory, munich)

braceful said:

For me the biggest reason to do PM was being able to use grains that must be mashed to convert (e.g. wheats, rye, victory, munich)

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Me too. I quickly moved to AG though.

unionrdr said:

...which are in extract as well,depending on what country they're from. All malts are not created equal. Different ingredients from different countries. I love that part,over & above separate malts now made as extracts. Mix-n-match.

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Wheat, Munich, and Rye are usually in extracts 50/50 with 2-row, so it's still not ideal. I've never seen victory or any similar biscuit-y malt in extract form, which is a specific flavor I was really wanting to get.

PM tags on some extra time to the day, but gives you more variety and may save some cash. I plan on doing PM's where there is more than a couple dollars difference (for example, AHS Yeti drops 8 bucks with a PM). I haven't brewed the same recipe twice but I doubt there will be a significant taste difference unless the extract isn't fresh

zachary80 said:

PM tags on some extra time to the day, but gives you more variety and may save some cash. I plan on doing PM's where there is more than a couple dollars difference (for example, AHS Yeti drops 8 bucks with a PM). I haven't brewed the same recipe twice but I doubt there will be a significant taste difference unless the extract isn't fresh

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It mostly depends on which grains are required. Some grain bills are just impossible to replicate with extract and steeping grains.

braceful said:

For me the biggest reason to go from extract to PM was being able to use grains that must be mashed to convert (e.g. wheats, rye, victory, munich)

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This is one of the biggest advantages of doing partial mashes. You can make an oatmeal stout with a partial mash! You cannot with extract batches.

It's very easy- if you can steep grains in a bag in an extract batch you can do a partial mash. The key is simply having enough basemalt in the mash (steep) at a proper temperature with the correct water volume. It's not hard at all.

Another advantage- if you can use a couple of grain bags and use 3-4 pounds of grain, you can purchase less extract, which is expensive.

Yet one more advantage- better taste. The less extract and more grain you use, in general, the better tasting the beer.

I cut my teeth are a couple of partial mashes and then realized BIAB is nearly the same thing. Best lesson I learned from partial mashes, don't be try to adjust the temp. I tried to fix one and made it worse

I started off doing mostly extract with a grain steep and I was impressed with the results. The biggest benefit for switching to all grain is you know exactly what you are going to get. Some liquid malts are known to have a large amount (between 10-40%) of glucose which is basically a simple syrup and really throws everything out of balance. If you are going to do extract always use dry, and really good quality dry.

Between doing that and a grain steep it is really straight forward. Substitute the grain steep for a BIAB (brew in a bag) and you have a partial mash.

The jump to all grain is a lot more involved but it's a lot cheaper. You can get extremely good (award winning etc.) beer from partial mash and almost everyone will tell you for big beers with all grain you use extra light DME to fill out the gravity. So really it's up to you, but partial mash is fairly straight forward... but buy DME from a very good brand and a very trusted company.

unionrdr said:

I just remembered that some grains can't self-convert,so base grains have to be added to them for conversion to happen. That's probably why some malts are 50/50,even when made into extract,since extract is still malt.

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No, I'm not sure why wheat malt extract is usually only 35% wheat. It doesn't anything to do with conversion- I mean, you can convert wheat malt without barley malt. I guess maybe it's because that's what most brewers must want, a mix of barley and wheat malt.

Most other extracts have "stuff" in them, too- like amber malt extract has crystal malt in it, light extract has carapils in it, etc. But generally they aren't a mix of different malt.

slogger said:

Partial seems intriguing and somewhat more complicated v. extract brewing which so far has been pretty simple. So is there a difference in taste? or is it the craft that people are after when they brew with partial or all grain?

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If you are just doing extract brews don't even worry about all grain right now.

As for the TASTE, most certainly there is a big benefit when you go to a mini mash. Even steeping grains will do this, but with mini mash you get the added sugar content.

Is there a difference in taste between steeping grains and mini mash, that is a good question?

What ever the answer if you like to control things, experiment and understand the chemistry and biology behind beer then mini mash is a good thing. If you you just want to make something that tastes good and gives a buzz with not much work then stick with steeping grains.

I like partial mash because you can make any just about any recipe you find out there and only need to buy grains and enough extract to make up the base malt percentage. It's very easy to convert all grain recipes - Mash your "flavor" malts with a few pounds of 2-row and add extract to get to your OG. It takes probably just as much time as all grain but I can do it in my kitchen..

ToddO said:

I like partial mash because you can make any just about any recipe you find out there and only need to buy grains and enough extract to make up the base malt percentage. It's very easy to convert all grain recipes - Mash your "flavor" malts with a few pounds of 2-row and add extract to get to your OG. It takes probably just as much time as all grain but I can do it in my kitchen..

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Yooper said:

No, I'm not sure why wheat malt extract is usually only 35% wheat. It doesn't anything to do with conversion- I mean, you can convert wheat malt without barley malt. I guess maybe it's because that's what most brewers must want, a mix of barley and wheat malt.

Most other extracts have "stuff" in them, too- like amber malt extract has crystal malt in it, light extract has carapils in it, etc. But generally they aren't a mix of different malt.

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This is what I remember being talked about One grain mashed with another grain because it can't convert to sugar by themselves. I even remember you talkin about this,yoop.
& I know Munton's DME has biscuit malt in it because I can taste it. And malt extracts from around the world aren't the same. If they were,they'd look & taste exactly the same. Since they don't,...

Munton's DME uses English 2-row, which has a slightly biscuit-y flavor (like Marris Otter). I promise you their DME doesn't have biscuit malt in it.

But 2-row from one maltster isn't identical to 2-row from another. Same goes for wheat, Munich, or any other type of malt. You add to that the differences in brewing, and concentrating for extract, and no, they won't taste exactly the same.

Wheat extract is typically 50/50. Wheat has more than enough diastatic power to convert itself. Munich and Vienna can also self-convert. They don't NEED the 2-row for any reason. I can brew an all-grain beer with 100% Munich or Vienna malt if I want, but that's obviously not possible with extract brewing. I brewed a Berliner Weisse a few months ago that was nearly 70% wheat... I'd be hard-pressed to do the same with extract.

Mashing grains makes more things possible, period. It doesn't mean you can't make great beers with just extract or w/ steeping grains, and a great extract brewer can often use little tricks to better approximate a beer that can't be perfectly brewed without mashing, but it's just a fact that brewers who aren't able to mash any grain are more limited than those who are.

emjay said:

It mostly depends on which grains are required. Some grain bills are just impossible to replicate with extract and steeping grains.

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That's what I meant by more variety

I am new to brewing but from what I see there are few straight extract recipes. I think my first batch was pure extract, then the next 5 or so had steeping, then the latest two were PM for different reasons (needed PM for the RyePA, saved money on the Yeti Clone)

emjay said:

Munton's DME uses English 2-row, which has a slightly biscuit-y flavor (like Marris Otter). I promise you their DME doesn't have biscuit malt in it.

But 2-row from one maltster isn't identical to 2-row from another. Same goes for wheat, Munich, or any other type of malt. You add to that the differences in brewing, and concentrating for extract, and no, they won't taste exactly the same.

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Exactly. Most "base malts" can convert themselves. Some base malts, like maris otter, have a delightfully biscuity flavor, but don't use biscuit malt. Biscuit malt tastes more like amber malt or victory malt than maris otter malt, so the Munton's biscuity flavor isn't biscuit malt. It's confusing with the labels, but once you use the grains a few times it starts to make sense.

US 2-row varies from maltster to maltster. Rahr has a slightly different taste than Briess, for example. Then consider English malts- or German malts, and you can see that AG just has more possibilities than extract beers.

That's why partial mashes are so great- you can use ANY malt. Any grain (oats, rice, corn, barley) and make a great beer. It really opens up a world of possibilities that you can't get with extract.

Extract beers can be very good! But you can't make an extract oatmeal stout. A partial mash can be the best of both worlds, and it's worth doing!

zachary80 said:

PM tags on some extra time to the day, but gives you more variety and may save some cash. I plan on doing PM's where there is more than a couple dollars difference (for example, AHS Yeti drops 8 bucks with a PM). I haven't brewed the same recipe twice but I doubt there will be a significant taste difference unless the extract isn't fresh

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Or you can put the recipe together yourself and partial mash using the full amount of grain your kettle can hold. That way you save the max amount of $ every batch.

jwplessner said:

Or you can put the recipe together yourself and partial mash using the full amount of grain your kettle can hold. That way you save the max amount of $ every batch.

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That may work out depending on how you buy. My IPA recipe I devised ended up being so expensive that it was cheaper to buy a kit, ignore the kit hops and buy my own additional hops than it was to buy all the ingredients separately

Yooper said:

No, I'm not sure why wheat malt extract is usually only 35% wheat. It doesn't anything to do with conversion- I mean, you can convert wheat malt without barley malt. I guess maybe it's because that's what most brewers must want, a mix of barley and wheat malt.

Most other extracts have "stuff" in them, too- like amber malt extract has crystal malt in it, light extract has carapils in it, etc. But generally they aren't a mix of different malt.

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What I've been referring to for months is where the malts (extract or otherwise) come from. Munton's,being from England,has grains in it that are unique to the UK. Over & above the usual additives. I can taste the biscuit & such in them. I rather like them.
The Australian stuff is a lot more straight-forward,almost neutral to fruity/bitter. I've yet to try the malt extracts from,say,LD Carlson down in Kent for my take on an "American" malt profile.
See what I'm getting at? They all have there like constituents,but they all have there uniqueness as well. That's what I've been talking about. But I read that some malts ( I forget which ones) needed a base malt to help get the starches converted to sugars. Over & above those that can be steeped needing mashing to get sugars out of them.

So I just brewed up an ESB extract recipe from AHS. The "steeping" grains were 1 lb of crystal 60 and 8 oz. of 2-row. So...technically speaking was this a Partial Mash since I assume that when I steeped the 2-row at 155* I converted some starches to sugars? Obviously, 8 oz. is a very small amount and I'm sure they added to the recipe for color/flavor mostly, but if I just ramp up the amount of base malt, that's basically a PM, right?