Is it even possible to achieve that authentic German crispness in a homebrewed lager?

After brewing dozens of German-styled lagers, I'm beginning to think it's impossible to achieve that German character as a home brewer. It's that sharp crispness that clearly sets apart German lagers from American counterparts. My beers are IMHO professional-quality but lack that crispness, and instead taste American (e.g. Michelob).

Here's a typical description of what I'm doing. Am I missing something?

- Always a base of German pilsner malt.
- Very little crystal or other non-base malts.
- German yeasts, e.g. Wyeast 2308, 2124, WLP 833
- Good water, e.g. 50% lake Michigan, 50% distilled.
- Mash pH around 5.4-5.5 (room temp, measured w/meter)
- Typically single infusion, sometimes triple-infusion (hochkurz method)
- Proper lager fermentation (pitch 46F, ferment 48F 7-10 days, d-rest 3-days, slowly lower over 2 wks to 32F).

This has frustrated me for 15 years now!

Looks pretty good, although I think that for lagers, you could lower the pH just a little bit to the 5.2-5.3 range. Probably won't make that much difference.

What is your mash temp?

How long are you lagering?

Id be willing to bet its your water. That kind of thing is exactly where dialing in your water profile to the style you're brewing is important.

Sounds like you're making a fantastic beer you're just wanting to take it from a 38-40 to a 45. John Palmer describes this exact thing in a water series he and jamil did. I'd go on the brewing network and listen to those 4-6 shows.

Get your water tested by Ward labs for like 15-20 bucks. With that knowledge in hand use one of the great calculators available online to tweak your water profile to style. Brunwater is a great one.

Water is important! I'd definitely consider using all reverse osmosis water, and adding back calcium chloride for most lagers.

The other thing we need to know is your fermentation schedule. I assume you're chilling the wort to fermentation temperature, or below, and pitching a huge amount of yeast, and fermenting at the low end of the yeast strain's optimum range, according to your notes there. But what about chilling faster to near freezing (you said you do it over two weeks), and holding it there for at least one week for every 8-10 points of OG? That means for a 1.060 lager, you'd lager for 6-8 weeks.

I'm no expert on lagers, but I've had more than a few great homebrewed ones! I've had pjj2tuba's German pilsner and CAP and thought they rivaled the crispness and flavor of a commercial excellent version.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/2013-nhc-bronze-medal-winner-classic-american-pilsner-419449/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/ocas-lishky-pilsner-urquell-clone-333411/

Neither one of those recipes are German pilsners- one is the Czech and one is CAP- but those are fabulous beers and the recipes and techniques are worth a read.

Homercidal said:

Looks pretty good, although I think that for lagers, you could lower the pH just a little bit to the 5.2-5.3 range. Probably won't make that much difference.

What is your mash temp?

How long are you lagering?

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I'll start experimenting with 5.2-5.3 pH and see what happens.

Mash temps have been all over the board, but doesn't seem to have an impact. E.g. infusions at 148F, at 155F, or hochkurz doing a rest at 145F then 160F.

Lagering your typical 6-8 weeks, except that I do this at 36F. Maybe lagering at 32F would help?

thirstyutahn said:

Id be willing to bet its your water. ...

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Perhaps. My typical water (50:50 plus CaCl) is: Ca 43, Mg 7, Na 4, Cl 54, SO4 13. Perhaps 100% distilled plus CaCl is worth a shot.

Yooper said:

Water is important! I'd definitely consider using all reverse osmosis water, and adding back calcium chloride for most lagers.
... But what about chilling faster to near freezing (you said you do it over two weeks), and holding it there for at least one week for every 8-10 points of OG? That means for a 1.060 lager, you'd lager for 6-8 weeks.
...

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Good points. I think I addressed these here.

Thanks for the help so far, folks. I'll give these a shot:
1) 100% distilled plus CaCl,
2) Lager at 32F instead of 36F.
3) Try a pH of 5.2-5.3.

Part of the "clean, crisp" taste of a lager also comes from mashing temperature. That would be a temperature in the mid-high 140s for the majority of the saccrification rest.

Your water with the 50/50 looks pretty good, so I think it's not the water.

Lagering colder, longer, will help but not fix it completely.

According to kai's wiki, traditional German fermentations don't include a d-rest:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

Coming off fermentation, they very slowly bring the temp down from fermentation temp to avoid shocking the yeast, and the yeast continues to clear diacetyl throughout that whole process.

Is this important? Not sure... But it's one difference from "tradition" that may be worth trying.

(As with any experiment, you're working with several variables here and I don't recommend changing all at once, so I'd try the others, i.e. water, before adding this step. Keeping a d-rest makes life a lot easier for us homebrewers, so if you can get to the goal without making this change, I'm sure it's preferred.)

Ever tried Belgian pilsner malt in your german recipes? I haven't, but I have used Best Malz pilsner which I think is German, and it wasn't very sharp tasting.

Filtering is another thing to consider. I haven't tried this yet either though.

In addition to the lower mash PH, try measuring the PH in the bottle too.

I stopped with the D-rest as I make sure to pitch a robust starter.
The 48* fermentation temperature is that the lagering temp or the wort temp?
I keep mine at 42*-43* with a wort temp of 44*-46* as fermentation takes off the wort temp goes up several degrees so you may be higher then you think during your primary

I've used Belgain pisner, even British. They all have worked pretty good. Many seem to prefer Best. My favorite is probably Castle.

I think my tap water is about right for a German pills but too much calcium sulfate for a Bohemian pilsner.

Most of mine are just 8 pounds pisner and hops at 60, 15 and 1. Doughed in at 145, decocted to 155 after 30-40 minutes, rested another 30 minutes than decocted to mash out. I get 5.25 gallons of 12-13 brix wort. I'm always playing around with different hops and yeast. WLP 830 is best for a German pills I believe. It's dry but still malty.

Although not 'traditional' most all lager breweries use some form of an accelerated brewing method these days, even in Germany. I do too. I pitch enough yeast at 48-50F (not always as much as Mr. Malty but it's always healthy and that's more important.) I let the temp go up a degree or so a day. By day five or six it's at FG and I'll let it sit there for at lest a few days before crashing to lager temp. Sometimes I'll even move it out to room temp for a few days. When it's a FG and tastes good I think the best place for it is in a keg and cold.

Malticulous said:

I've used Belgain pisner, even British. They all have worked pretty good. Many seem to prefer Best. My favorite is probably Castle.

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Castle is my favorite pilsner malt, too! It makes a great Belgian triple (why I bought it), but I found that it makes an excellent German pilsner.

Good information.

beaksnbeer said:

...
The 48* fermentation temperature is that the lagering temp or the wort temp?
I keep mine at 42*-43* with a wort temp of 44*-46* as fermentation takes off the wort temp goes up several degrees so you may be higher then you think during your primary

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48F is my fermentation temp, which has been calibrated and is actual beer temp.

To answer other questions, I pitch yeast amounts based on yeastcalc / mrmalty recommendations. Hence the nice short 7-10 day fermentation. And as for malt, I stick with German only since that's what I'm targeting.

Evoke the brain power of aj.

SpeedYellow said:

48F is my fermentation temp, which has been calibrated and is actual beer temp.

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Beer is probably just fine and the crispness you are seeking may be totally unattainable--and perhaps not even exist.

I have read about some pretty ridiculously cold fermentation temperatures and long schedules if you pitch enough yeast. Select the strain that will go the lowest (maybe 2124) and really try to push it slow. I tend to pitch at a low temp, see a couple of days' lag time, get a very nice big krausen and have it last for a couple of weeks at least. Now I'm not saying my lagers are Germany-crisp, but given all the things you are doing well, trying to ferment lower (40-42?) and slower may help.

Good luck!

I lived in Germany for 7 months in 1999 and really enjoy that "crispness" as well. My final water in ppm is Ca 116, Mg 18, Na 15, Cl 135, SO4 135. I mash with distilled water and add 3g CaSO4, 8g CaCl2, & 4g MgSO4. I can send you my water spreadsheet if you'd like. My recipe is 8.25# Weyermann Pilsner & 1.5# Weyermann Munich. I have tried several different yeasts and believe it or not the "crispest" result is from Wyeast 2007. I think the Budweiser yeast was German at one time????

jeffcosgrove said:

I lived in Germany for 7 months in 1999 and really enjoy that "crispness" as well. My final water in ppm is Ca 116, Mg 18, Na 15, Cl 135, SO4 135. I mash with distilled water and add 3g CaSO4, 8g CaCl2, & 4g MgSO4. I can send you my water spreadsheet if you'd like. My recipe is 8.25# Weyermann Pilsner & 1.5# Weyermann Munich. I have tried several different yeasts and believe it or not the "crispest" result is from Wyeast 2007. I think the Budweiser yeast was German at one time????

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I will try this the next time. And also try and ferment lower. The last one I made @ 50° took 48 hours to take off. But I guess thats not bad.

I pitch at 44 deg and ferment at 49 deg.

osagedr said:

... Now I'm not saying my lagers are Germany-crisp, but given all the things you are doing well, trying to ferment lower (40-42?) and slower may help.

Good luck!

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Seems extraordinarily low, but I'll investigate this and may give it a shot. Thanks for the idea.

jeffcosgrove said:

.. I have tried several different yeasts and believe it or not the "crispest" result is from Wyeast 2007. I think the Budweiser yeast was German at one time????

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Thanks for that! I'll give 2007 a shot some time.

Seems like most of these suggestions (ferment 5-7 degrees cooler, lager 5 degrees cooler, mash pH 0.2 lower, pure RO water) probably won't have a huge impact. I'll try them, but I'm also thinking (a) yeast, or (b) some high mineral level like Mg, Cl, or SO4.

jeffcosgrove said:

I lived in Germany for 7 months in 1999 and really enjoy that "crispness" as well. My final water in ppm is Ca 116, Mg 18, Na 15, Cl 135, SO4 135. I mash with distilled water and add 3g CaSO4, 8g CaCl2, & 4g MgSO4. I can send you my water spreadsheet if you'd like. My recipe is 8.25# Weyermann Pilsner & 1.5# Weyermann Munich. I have tried several different yeasts and believe it or not the "crispest" result is from Wyeast 2007. I think the Budweiser yeast was German at one time????

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Do you add acid malt to lower the ph with this water profile?

Having been to Germany many times I have to say I have had just as good or better versions in the US by micro and home breweries. By 'crispness' I assume you mean dry, carbonated, very clean, cold? Using Weyermann malts/ RO water adjusting to 5.4 with CaCl mashing at 147-9 , pitching 1 million cells/mL per degree plato of any Czech or German Lager yeast into oxygenated wort and fermenting 50 degrees rising to 55 to push the end and then let sit at 60 degrees 2-3 days after fermentation (lowers lagering time). This works well for me and people I know. Some people seem afraid to let the temps rise towards the end....it actually cleans the beer up more, not the opposite, it's just important to hold it at 50-52 degrees through 80% of the ferm then let it go to 55 til done, then 60. D isn't the only thing the yeast can clean up. Also I remove the beer from the yeast before dropping temps to lagering.

I agree. I mash at 149 and it drops to 148 by the end. I also let the temperature rise to 60 when it is 80% done even though I pitch at 44. I take it off the yeast and lager at 32 for 4 weeks. North Coast Brewing's Scrimshaw is what I have modeled my "German" pilsner after.

My lagers have improved since I started fermenting my starters at the same temperature I ferment my lagers at.

shelly_belly said:

My lagers have improved since I started fermenting my starters at the same temperature I ferment my lagers at.

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I was wondering about that. What temp do you do your starter at? I have had the wort about mid - upper 60's since my starters are on the kitchen cabinet about which is about 72. I was thinking of a way to get power and my spin place in my ferment chamber at a lower temp. Would starters be ok in the mid to lower 50's along with the wort it will be pitched in if I put the stir plate in the fermenter?

I ferment lagers and starters at 48F. I quit using the stir plate. I think that before when I was using stir plates and room temperatures I was probably losing too many yeasts from decanting. I would cold crash for 24-48 hours. It didn't seem that all of the yeast were dropping out. I now make starters at least 1 month in advance and the yeast will flocculate completely. I don't know if the lower temperatures make much difference on the yeast quality but it does yield me a larger quantity. Plus I get an extra gallon of delicious lager to drink!

Now I want to brew a lager and see if I can improve it. Lower mash, bigger starter, low ferment starter, better water...

Maybe when the real cold hits I'll throw a heater in a box and make it my lagering fridge.

shelly_belly said:

My lagers have improved since I started fermenting my starters at the same temperature I ferment my lagers at.

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Do you crash/decant?

shelly_belly said:

My lagers have improved since I started fermenting my starters at the same temperature I ferment my lagers at.

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I'm sure this would work just fine, but I don't think you can make any plausible argument that it's an improvement or that it's a generally-accepted best practice. You're simply making yeast, not beer, and you're only pitching the yeast, so....

osagedr said:

I have read about some pretty ridiculously cold fermentation temperatures and long schedules if you pitch enough yeast. Select the strain that will go the lowest (maybe 2124) and really try to push it slow. I tend to pitch at a low temp, see a couple of days' lag time, get a very nice big krausen and have it last for a couple of weeks at least. Now I'm not saying my lagers are Germany-crisp, but given all the things you are doing well, trying to ferment lower (40-42?) and slower may help.

Good luck!

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I fermented a Dortmunder at 43 earlier this year, with my normal (slightly high according to mr. malty) pitching rate. It came out a sulfury mess, I think because the fermentation wasn't vigorous enough to off-gas. Have you noticed similar problems fermenting lagers this cold?

SpeedYellow said:

I'm sure this would work just fine, but I don't think you can make any plausible argument that it's an improvement or that it's a generally-accepted best practice. You're simply making yeast, not beer, and you're only pitching the yeast, so....

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Maybe. I'm sure it's more complicated than that. You're not "making" yeast, you're providing a medium for them to grow, and they can grow in all kinds of differing conditions which may affect their viability or behavior. You're also never pitching just yeast, even if you decant. Even a thick slurry may have less than 50% yeast matter.

The palmer book says to do the yeast that way. The brewing lager one says to pitch the yeast 5° warmer. I always built them at the same temp. Not sure if it makes a difference or not. I need a r.o. Filter or need to start buying my water from the store. The last one I made the mash ph was 5.5 even after adding a bunch of acid malt ... See what happens i guess.

grathan said:

Do you crash/decant?

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I don't crash as the yeast have usually dropped out and the beer is very clear. I do decant - I rack into a corny keg for drinking. Lightly hopped DME lagers are really pretty tasty!

SpeedYellow said:

I'm sure this would work just fine, but I don't think you can make any plausible argument that it's an improvement or that it's a generally-accepted best practice. You're simply making yeast, not beer, and you're only pitching the yeast, so....

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Not saying it's better, just saying it has worked better for me.

How about carbonation? I carb my lagers to a higher volume than my ales. I've found it makes a big difference - my first couple lagers were undercarbed. Getting them to about 2.7 volumes or so made a much better beer.

jeffjm said:

I fermented a Dortmunder at 43 earlier this year, with my normal (slightly high according to mr. malty) pitching rate. It came out a sulfury mess, I think because the fermentation wasn't vigorous enough to off-gas. Have you noticed similar problems fermenting lagers this cold?

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I don't think I've ever gone as low as 43, and I'm also very bad at picking up sulphur. But it's a good point; stressing yeast is in general a risky business.

Just to dredge up this thread I started, I SOLVED IT! Two things: (1) 100% distilled water, plus minor minerals, and (2) lots of noble hops. I've realized I must get terrible hop utilization, because when I aim for 35-40 IBU, I get a wonderfully crisp, lively lager. As opposed to boring lifeless beers when i do 20-25 IBU. I also switched to dry yeast (34/70) exclusively, but I don't think that was the big difference.

Sitting here drinking a BoPils that's FAR better than anything I've ever bought, Urquell included. Very happy!!

Nice. I was wondering if water played into it. I'm surprised about the hops. I'd think it'd get too, bitter/tannic, maybe, if you upped the noble hops too much. I target around 35 IBU for my Bo Pils and it's tasty. I think low mineral water makes a big difference.
Nothing wrong with 34/70, it's great yeast. Easier to use than buying a smack pack of 2124.
Sucky thing about buying distilled water is you gotta buy all those jugs. Recycling them is fine, but it's just more stuff to lug around and they're more expensive than getting RO out of the machine.