Can only certain grains be steeped?

I just started brewing and am trying to put together recipes where I can use Malt Extract, while steeping the specialty grains.

For example, could I steep vienna, or belgian aromatic or special B, or are some of these grains only possible to mash?

Again, forgive me if this question is stupid, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can.

You can steep those grains for color and taste and all that but they won't add too much to your gravity, if anything.

All grains can be steeped. The problem comes into play when starches are not converted to sugars. Some grains perform better when mashed than when steeped. Meaning the extraction of sugars is greater (efficiency).

When you steep a grain you will notice that the color of the water changes and the wort becomes sweet.

Here's a list I put together that I carry around in my wallet (it's also laminated)...I know overboard...

Base Malts-MASHED ONLY:
American 2 row
American 6 row
Pilsner Malt
Continental Pilsner
British Pale Ale
Rye
Wheat

Kilned Malts-MASHED ONLY:
Vienna
Munich
Aromatic (20L)
Biscuit (25L)
Victory (28L)
Melanoidin (28L)
Special Roast (50L)
Brown (70L)
German Beechwood / Smoked Rauch

Roasted Malts-MASHED OR STEEPED:
Carapils / Dextrine
Crystal (15L)
Honey Malt (18L)
CaraVienna (20L)
Crystal (40L)
CaraMunich (60L)
Crystal (60L)
Crystal (80L)
Crystal (120L)
Special “B” (120L)
Meussdoerffer Rost (200L)

Kiln / Roasted Malts-MASHED OR STEEPED:
Pale Chocolate (200L)
Light Roasted Barley (300L)
Chocolate (350L)
Chocolate (420L)
Carafa Special II (430L)
Chocolate (475L)
Roasted Barley (450L)
Roasted Barley (500L)
Black Barley (500L)
Black Patent (525L)
Roasted Barley (575L)
Black (600L)

Vienna and Munich need to be mashed. Same thing with Rauchmalt. You're just going to get hazy beer with minimal flavor otherwise.

This is why Jamil always calls for Munich malt extract in his Brewing Classic Styles book rather than listing it in the steeping grains.

Your question is not stupid! It's something we all go through at one point or another.

There are many grains which can be steeped with 100% effectiveness. There are others which must be mashed to get any effect at all, and lots which range in between. Note that when mashed, you get 100% utilization of virtually all brewing grains.

To use the examples you listed, Special B may be steeped with 100% effect. Aromatic may be steeped for flavor and aroma contributions, but will not impact gravity. Steeping Vienna has very little effect at all.

Homebrewer 99's list is pretty good. I'd change a couple of things, but it's a good start!

A good rule of thumb is that any Roasted or Crystal malt - everything from Chocolate to Caramunich - can be steeped with 100% effectiveness. In the case of the roasted grains, there aren't really any sugars to extract; all we want are the colors and flavors. In the case of the Crystal/Caramel malts, the process which makes them identifiable as Crystal/Caramel makes their sugars soluble in the steeping liquor, so you get flavor, color and fermentable sugars.

The 'in-between' grains - everything on 99's list but Vienna, Munich and CaraPils* - can be steeped for flavor/color contribution. You just won't get fermentables out of them, and excessive use can make the beer hazy with unconverted starches.

How to Brew - By John Palmer has some truncated lists of which malts/grains are which and whether they can be steeped or must be mashed. Have a look!

Cheers,

Bob

* I've never had any success at all steeping Vienna or Munich malts. All that resulted was a hazy mess that didn't get any of the effects desired. And while CaraPils can be steeped, it's only worth about 20% of when it's mashed. So if you're converting an all-grain recipe which calls for 0.5 lbs of CaraPils, you'd need to steep 2.5 lbs of it to get the same effect.

To look at the question from a slightly different perspective, grains require mashing if they contain starches that require enzymes to convert those starches into sugars.
The next thing to consider is if those grains contain sufficient enzymes to convert their own starches. The Belgian aromatic and Vienna both require mashing as they contain starches while the Special B doesn't. However, the two malts that require mashing also contain enough enzymes to convert themselves, so it isn't necessary to add extra base malts to provide the enzymes. When you consider that mashing is really steeping with a bit more attention paid to temperature and the amount of water used, you should be able to mash those grains with minimal difficulty. To get the most out of them, you would need to sparge (rinse out the sugars), but that shouldn't be too dificult if you use a grain bag and colander (or other method).

Now, if you were to use flaked barley, corn, oats, rice, rye etc. they have starches but no enzymes, and would require mashing with some base grains.

-a.

NQ3X said:

Homebrewer 99's list is pretty good. I'd change a couple of things, but it's a good start!

Click to expand...

Researching my info again I found what I listed in Palmer's How to Brew, pages 123-127.

What would you change? Do you know something Palmer missed?

homebrewer_99 said:

Researching my info again I found what I listed in Palmer's How to Brew, pages 123-127.

What would you change? Do you know something Palmer missed?

Click to expand...

On page 124, under Kilned Malts where is says in parenthesis, "need to be mashed."

These malts include Vienna, Munich, Aromatic, Amber, and Brown. You have them listed as "May be steeped" which they cannot.

PseudoChef said:

On page 124, under Kilned Malts where is says in parenthesis, "need to be mashed."

These malts include Vienna, Munich, Aromatic, Amber, and Brown. You have them listed as "May be steeped" which they cannot.

Click to expand...

Probably mistyped...I can change that...

DONE...

Hope you don't need to take the laminate off

Great question! I think a lot of new brewers get confused about this.

PseudoChef said:

Hope you don't need to take the laminate off

Click to expand...

Nah, reprint and relaminated...

I bought some extract kits from my LHBS and in the steeping grains they included Vienna Victory and Munich. I assume that the store knows what they're doing, why would they include those with a steeping grains kit if they need to be mashed?

Because if the kit's instructions tell you to "steep the crushed grains at 155F" or something, what you've done is performed a very basic mash.

Either that or they just don't know. It's possible that they don't!

Bob

So, just to clarify...

What is the difference between steeping and mashing?

Steep - Soak grains in hot water for some time without paying too much attention to the amount of water used or the temperature.
Mash - Soak grains in hot water using between 1 and 2 qts water for each lb grain, keeping the temperature between 148F and 158F for 40 to 90 minutes.
When mashing, stir really well to make sure there are no dry spots. Lower temperatures result in a more fermentable wort (drier beer) while higher temperatures give a more dextrinous wort (sweeter, more malty finish). Thicker mashes (less water) also have the same effect as higher temperatures. The time is necessary for the enzymes to do their job. Lower temperatures and thinner mashes require longer times. The times I quoted are very conservative. If you are in a hurry, you could check for completion with an iodine test (do a search).

-a.

thnk you!!!

ajf said:

Now, if you were to use flaked barley, corn, oats, rice, rye etc. they have starches but no enzymes, and would require mashing with some base grains.

.

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Another newbie brewer here...I'm on my third batch using steeping grains and extracts. Went to my local shop and they were out of their kits so I improvised..I decided to try rye as my steeping grain. Got a pound of German malted rye grain and 3/4 lb of flaked rye. Then added 6.5 lbs of light malt extract. Its been in the primary just over a week...(used Fuggles and Perle Hops, too)

I considered mashing it at the last minute...but was not really prepared to do that (don't know how and didn't know if I had the right equipment) so I went forward with the experiment...Any ideas what I should expect?

ajf said:

Steep - Soak grains in hot water for some time without paying too much attention to the amount of water used or the temperature.
Mash - Soak grains in hot water using between 1 and 2 qts water for each lb grain, keeping the temperature between 148F and 158F for 40 to 90 minutes.
When mashing, stir really well to make sure there are no dry spots.
-a.

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I've also been concerned with the difference between these too... What i normally do with my extract brews is put the grains in a nylon bag and soak them in about 2.5 gal of water in my brew pot temp. around 155F for about 30 min...
I've always just thought of what i'm doing as steeping the grains... Is it actually more mashing them? Could i use this method with grains that have to be mashed vs. steeped? Does the amount of water play a big difference?
Sorry for the newbie questions... Just trying to get everything straight...
Thanks

ChuckWood said:

I've also been concerned with the difference between these too... What i normally do with my extract brews is put the grains in a nylon bag and soak them in about 2.5 gal of water in my brew pot temp. around 155F for about 30 min...
I've always just thought of what i'm doing as steeping the grains... Is it actually more mashing them? Could i use this method with grains that have to be mashed vs. steeped? Does the amount of water play a big difference?
Sorry for the newbie questions... Just trying to get everything straight...
Thanks

Click to expand...

2.5 gallons is too thin for mashing, since the enzymes would likely be too sparse to convert the grains in a reasonable timeframe. The normal ratios for conversion are 1.0 qts per pound of grain to 2.0 qts per pound of grain.

+1. THe amount of water makes a huge difference to mashing. As Saccharomyces wrote, excess mash liquor means the enzymes so critical to starch-to-sugar conversion will be so dispersed as to be ineffective.

You can still perform a partial mash easily. See DeathBrewer's "Easy Stovetop Partial Mashing" thread.

Cheers,

Bob

that makes sense explained that way... could i do an effective mash with one kettle though (lack of funds and i only have one)... paying attention to the water to grain ratio and just adding more water to the same kettle after the mash then continuing with the extract part?

Yes, you'd be on your way to "brew in a bag" concept actually, though that requires a quite large pot.

Excellent info in this thread! Just getting to this point in my brewing career now myself and was confused.... not any more.

thanks to those who have shed some light on this topic.

So basically.. I could mash crushed grains at the proper temp in a large sauce pan while bring a couple gallons of my wort up to boil then dump the mashed liquid into the boil pot?

I am about to start my second batch and I think before I steeped 2lbs of grain from in 2.5 gallons cold water up to 145-155degrees then stayed there for 25 or so min. Did I use too much water to be effective? I think the grains were crystal 20 and munich..

Before you go all thoughtful and creative - and try to reinvent the wheel - click here for DeathBrewer's excellent and easy-to-understand partial mash tutorial. You won't be sorry! He really does make it easy.

To answer your second question: As stated above, the only volume that really works when mashing is 1 to 2 quarts per pound of grain. Therefore, ten quarts for two pounds - or 5 quarts to the gallon - was not effective.

Bob

I just got an extract kit with specialty grains,

• Torrified Wheat
• Caramel Malt 40
• Victory (or it might have been Vienna)

When I put them in BeerSmith as an extract kit, it gives me an ! and says must mash. As far as I can tell, the Victory (or Vienna) only has limited diastatic power though - is this going to be enough to extract any goodness from the grains? I read somewhere (in DeathBrewers PM thread, I think) that steeping some grains (like these ones) is next to useless, as you get no flavor or anything out of them... Should I run to my LHBS and get a pound or two of crushed 6-row to add to make it a partial mash? What, exactly, am I go to be missing (other than the starch to sugar conversion) if I do just steep?

Neither the wheat nor the Victory will impart fermentables if steeped. The wheat might as well not even be there; the Victory will impart some color and flavor. The C40 will, of course, have all of its yummy goodness extracted, just like any crystal or caramel malt.

I'd go get a pound or so of 2-row pale malt. 6-row is really only worthwhile when brewing high-adjunct beers, where upwards of 50% of the grist is corn or rice. Determine exactly how much wheat and Victory you need, total the two, and get that amount of 2-row. Round up - for example, if your recipe calls for 3/4 lb wheat and 1/2 lb Victory, get 2 lbs 2-row. Mash all your grains together using DB's tutorial. Don't forget to reduce the extract called for in your extract/steep recipe by the amount of 2-row you add!

Bob

Yeah - forgot the C40 would still give the colour, but that is only about 4 oz. It was the wheat I was mainly worried about though, which is 0.75 lb out of the total of 1.5 pound. (The actual recipe is at home.) So I'll get a couple of pounds of 2 row, and drop the LME accordingly. Guess I should have just brought the PM kit anyway! DB's thread makes it look so easy!

Cheers!


ETA - will steeping torrified wheat gain me anything at all? Flavor, head retention...?

Similar question to the original -- Is there a significant difference between Caramel and Crystal malts?

AFAIK, Crystal and caramel are used interchangeably. Different names for the same thing.

+1. Crystal, caramel. PotAYto, poTAHto.



Bob

good topic...because I was wondering too.

so I just bought the following grains for my next recipe and was just planning on throwing them all together in a bag and steeping them. Will that be okay?

Special roast
Chocolate malt
Belgian Pilsen Malt
Crystal 40L

bennychico11 said:

good topic...because I was wondering too.

so I just bought the following grains for my next recipe and was just planning on throwing them all together in a bag and steeping them. Will that be okay?

Special roast
Chocolate malt
Belgian Pilsen Malt
Crystal 40L

Click to expand...

Pilsner malt is a base malt and needs to be mashed. Throw them all together an a bag and "steep" them at 150-155 deg F with 1-2 qts of water per pound of grain for 45-60 minutes, and you will effectively be mashing. Don't panic if you don't hit the temperature spot-on, just adjust it with some spare icewater or boiling water as necessary - enzymes don't denature instantly.

While steeping and mashing are very different biochemically, the procedures are quite similar. If you can do one, you can probably do the other.

Hello,

I have a related question to this thread...please excuse my ressurecting the old thread, but I use the search engine a lot here

I have been creating recipes and brewing various styles of beers with liquid and/or dry extract and using steeping grains. I would like to try to extract extra fermentables from my grains when the particular grain allows, just to gain a few original gravity points from time to time...just because :cross:

If I were to use a partial mash technique, will I still gain the same color and flavor qualities from the grains as I would by steeping, or will these qualities diminish due to the lower volume of water used in the kettle?

Honestly, if using partial mash would mean I will sacrifice on my taste or color, I'd rather stick to steeping in a greater volume of water.

thanks!

You'll get more color and flavor (and utilization in general) with a PM than with steeping, though it may not be noticeably more with true specialty grains.

Wow that is great to hear. Thank you, SumnerH.