Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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From what I have read/heard (I believe Denny has said this) - but some people feel they get a more fermentable wort with a longer mash.

I know a recent podcast (or maybe NHC presentation) I listened to was talking about session IPA's. A strategy for getting a fuller beer with a higher FG was to mash for a short period of time (15-20 minutes).

So, I would say a "possible" reason for the long mash is not that it gives you a higher OG, but rather that the wort you produce might be more fermentable and give you a lower FG and a slightly drier beer as finished product.
 
bobbrews said:
You can do a single post-boil addition:

Add the whirlpool hops at 180 F and keep them between 160-180F for 20-30 minutes.

or you can...

Do both:

-Direct flameout addition, letting the wort cool down to 165F (for the added isomerization without destroying too much flavor/aroma)

-Followed by a 165F whirlpool/hopstand for 20-30 min (no isomerization, but a lot of pleasant hop character)
Click to expand...

Based on the above suggestion of "Do both". Would it be best to split the hops originally called out for at 180F whirpool, or do the whole array of hops at each?
 
bobbrews said:
You're already over 1 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer as it is. And when you rack the 5.1 gallons you collected to secondary, some of that will be lost to trub.



HBT Heady Topper clone attempts are continuing to evolve. While the page 1 recipe will create a fine beer, it is not a perfect clone for Heady Topper. It is lacking the appropriate bitterness and/or contains too much caramalt, and the hop profile is not completely nailed. No actual hops are boiled in the real Heady Topper either. Additionally, I'm in favor of a 148-149 F, 90 minute mash and substituting about 4-5% turbinado for base malt to aid dryness. The water profile is also extremely important.

If I were to clone again, I would advise gaining some IBUs during the whirlpool instead of relying on 100% of the isomerization at boil start. Again, no actual hops should be boiled:

1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary

12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop

Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week.


^The majority of these hops are very piney, dank(marijuana), and full of pungent grapefruit. Centennial is really the only somewhat fruity hop. I am open to minor tweaks if you guys attempt this beer and are familiar with what these hops bring to the table.
Click to expand...

bobbrews said:
You can do a single post-boil addition:

Add the whirlpool hops at 180 F and keep them between 160-180F for 20-30 minutes.

or you can...

Do both:

-Direct flameout addition, letting the wort cool down to 165F (for the added isomerization without destroying too much flavor/aroma)

-Followed by a 165F whirlpool/hopstand for 20-30 min (no isomerization, but a lot of pleasant hop character)
Click to expand...

I believe my last post was confusing. Even to me. I did not ask the question correctly.

If I were to do both, what is the hop qty for the "Direct Flameout" addition and what is the hop qty for the "Whirlpool/hopstand" addition?

Is it simply taking the total whirlpool hop qty, highlighted in red in the recipe above and adding half for each post-boil addition?
Is it adding the whole qty for each separate addition?

Which is it? I ask because I am unsure if isomerization needs to be compensated for if the hop quantity is split between the two additions.
 
A buddy of mine brought me back 4 Heady Toppers when he was down in Vermont for a business trip. I just cracked my first one today and Wow, this really is an awesome beer. I like that it is hoppy, but not too bitter. Very sessionable for a double IPA.

I haven't read through all 300 pages yet, but I was wonder why the use of wheat? Seems out of place.
 
Brewizard said:
A buddy of mine brought me back 4 Heady Toppers when he was down in Vermont for a business trip. I just cracked my first one today and Wow, this really is an awesome beer. I like that it is hoppy, but not too bitter. Very sessionable for a double IPA.



I haven't read through all 300 pages yet, but I was wonder why the use of wheat? Seems out of place.
Click to expand...


Body/head retention mostly. Keep reading, it's been cut out for most people from what I recall.
 
bobbrews said:
You're already over 1 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer as it is. And when you rack the 5.1 gallons you collected to secondary, some of that will be lost to trub.



HBT Heady Topper clone attempts are continuing to evolve. While the page 1 recipe will create a fine beer, it is not a perfect clone for Heady Topper. It is lacking the appropriate bitterness and/or contains too much caramalt, and the hop profile is not completely nailed. No actual hops are boiled in the real Heady Topper either. Additionally, I'm in favor of a 148-149 F, 90 minute mash and substituting about 4-5% turbinado for base malt to aid dryness. The water profile is also extremely important.

If I were to clone again, I would advise gaining some IBUs during the whirlpool instead of relying on 100% of the isomerization at boil start. Again, no actual hops should be boiled:

1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary

12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop

Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week.



^The majority of these hops are very piney, dank(marijuana), and full of pungent grapefruit. Centennial is really the only somewhat fruity hop. I am open to minor tweaks if you guys attempt this beer and are familiar with what these hops bring to the table.
Click to expand...

is this the most accurate version of cloning Heady. Sorry if i may be asking a question that may have been answered already... I have been away for a while. Thanks in advance.... Cheers gents and gals:mug:
 
Brizzo said:
I just cultured a Conan starter from a heady can and pitched it into an IPA Monday- mine smelled similar minus the sulfur- when I pitched it it smelled like a strong yeast smell- semi hefe like but I attributed that to the starter being warm. Fermentation doesn't usually smell good so I bet you will be fine
Click to expand...

Fermented out now and the beer is ready, it's like a hopfenweisse. I fermented it at 63F, it fermented out in 2 days, then i let it sit at 66. Strong hefe aroma.
 
simontja said:
Fermented out now and the beer is ready, it's like a hopfenweisse. I fermented it at 63F, it fermented out in 2 days, then i let it sit at 66. Strong hefe aroma.
Click to expand...


I have an ipa made with a Conan starter (ramped up twice) that is doing the same thing, fermented at 64, lots of phenolic flavors, almost banana like, hopfenweisse I'd a great descriptor. I am cold crashing it to hopefully get some of that yeast to drop out and reduce the off flavors. First time in 12 years of brewing this has ever happened
 
Brizzo said:
I have an ipa made with a Conan starter (ramped up twice) that is doing the same thing, fermented at 64, lots of phenolic flavors, almost banana like, hopfenweisse I'd a great descriptor. I am cold crashing it to hopefully get some of that yeast to drop out and reduce the off flavors. First time in 12 years of brewing this has ever happened
Click to expand...

My can was from June, maybe we got the same cans? I noticed it right on, no real peach, just banana, light sulphur, and clove. Mine finished 1.012 from 1.074 - in 3 days at 63f.
 
Will this beer taste different without Hopshot? (regular hops of the same IBU instead of hopshots)
 
The_Glue said:
Will this beer taste different without Hopshot? (regular hops of the same IBU instead of hopshots)
Click to expand...


You'll have to account for the hops absorbing liquid (or have way less volume). Supposedly hop shot is made with CTZ and you can reasonably approximate it with those hops. Full disclosure, I've never tried nor have I had a beer where someone tried. I'd probably just get hop shot.
 
brewski09 said:
You'll have to account for the hops absorbing liquid (or have way less volume). Supposedly hop shot is made with CTZ and you can reasonably approximate it with those hops. Full disclosure, I've never tried nor have I had a beer where someone tried. I'd probably just get hop shot.
Click to expand...

So using real hops won't make the beer more astringent/vegetal/grassy etc. than the hop shot version? (I've seen this opinion here and there) Could I use isomerized hop extract instead of hopshot?
The isomerized hop extract I can buy is much cheaper than real hops per IBU added. Also I cant really get Hopshots here.
 
I just used some Conan in my harvest ale that I cultured from a can and got that same banana clove aroma and flavor thank got my wet hop absorbed a lot of beer because it was like 3 gals into the keg so I can kill the keg quick with small pours here and there
 
The_Glue said:
So using real hops won't make the beer more astringent/vegetal/grassy etc. than the hop shot version? (I've seen this opinion here and there) Could I use isomerized hop extract instead of hopshot?
The isomerized hop extract I can buy is much cheaper than real hops per IBU added. Also I cant really get Hopshots here.
Click to expand...

if you use some super high alpha known-to-be-smooth bittering hops like warrior, you won't taste anything. Especially with the ungodly amount of hops that a lot of these recipes have
 
The_Glue said:
So using real hops won't make the beer more astringent/vegetal/grassy etc. than the hop shot version? (I've seen this opinion here and there) Could I use isomerized hop extract instead of hopshot?

The isomerized hop extract I can buy is much cheaper than real hops per IBU added. Also I cant really get Hopshots here.
Click to expand...


I haven't done this myself so I'm not sure but it's worth a test (maybe not with this beer and all the hops - something lower cost/risk?)
 
Given the sheer immensity of this thread, does anyone have the current, closest clone to Heady? I'm going to do alot of digging, but if someone can just post the current best clone that'd be fantastic! I'm going to try to synthesize it all together and eventually make my own clone.
 
Rhaegar92 said:
Given the sheer immensity of this thread, does anyone have the current, closest clone to Heady? I'm going to do alot of digging, but if someone can just post the current best clone that'd be fantastic! I'm going to try to synthesize it all together and eventually make my own clone.
Click to expand...


Don't think there's consensus on this. The question has been asked half a dozen times I think over the past few weeks. Just go back a few pages and you'll probably find someone's response to this with what they consider the current closest clone.

Personally, I'd start with the recipe from page one and tweak it from there as you see fit.
 
bobbrews said:
You're already over 1 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer as it is. And when you rack the 5.1 gallons you collected to secondary, some of that will be lost to trub.



HBT Heady Topper clone attempts are continuing to evolve. While the page 1 recipe will create a fine beer, it is not a perfect clone for Heady Topper. It is lacking the appropriate bitterness and/or contains too much caramalt, and the hop profile is not completely nailed. No actual hops are boiled in the real Heady Topper either. Additionally, I'm in favor of a 148-149 F, 90 minute mash and substituting about 4-5% turbinado for base malt to aid dryness. The water profile is also extremely important.

If I were to clone again, I would advise gaining some IBUs during the whirlpool instead of relying on 100% of the isomerization at boil start. Again, no actual hops should be boiled:

1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary

12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop

Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week.



^The majority of these hops are very piney, dank(marijuana), and full of pungent grapefruit. Centennial is really the only somewhat fruity hop. I am open to minor tweaks if you guys attempt this beer and are familiar with what these hops bring to the table.
Click to expand...

Here ya go. The latest and arguably the greatest.

Water parameters are very important. Just as important as any other ingredients on the recipe. If not the most important. I'd say it's the most important.

Pitch the correct amount of yeast too. Don't under pitch and don't over pitch by much. Take into account the overall viability of your yeast vial when calculating the amount of yeast cells to pitch. You'll be good to go! Well... you should be good to go.

Did I mention the water is important?
 
roncruiser said:
Here ya go. The latest and arguably the greatest.

Water parameters are very important. Just as important as any other ingredients on the recipe. If not the most important. I'd say it's the most important.

Pitch the correct amount of yeast too. Don't under pitch and don't over pitch by much. Take into account the overall viability of your yeast vial when calculating the amount of yeast cells to pitch. You'll be good to go! Well... you should be good to go.

Did I mention the water is important?
Click to expand...

What is a good water profile for this beer? Kimmich mentioned 5.4 mash ph (adjusted for room temp) and lot of sulfates. (btw i find the sulfates interesting, in the Hill Farmstead thread we are hyping cloride instead of sulfates)
 
TheHairyHop said:
if you use some super high alpha known-to-be-smooth bittering hops like warrior, you won't taste anything. Especially with the ungodly amount of hops that a lot of these recipes have
Click to expand...

Thats cool, they don't really sell hop extracts around here and i thought that it would be mandatory to get the taste right.
 
The_Glue said:
What is a good water profile for this beer? Kimmich mentioned 5.4 mash ph (adjusted for room temp) and lot of sulfates. (btw i find the sulfates interesting, in the Hill Farmstead thread we are hyping cloride instead of sulfates)
Click to expand...

I went with this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2jftip/heady_topper_clone/

Read through that thread. The guy did his research and summarized what essentially is a good water profile to use. I brewed up a batch just last weekend using his water profile.

Now, his recipe is different than the one bobbrews outlines, but the water should be the common denominator for whatever HT recipe you choose to go with.

I'm gonna brew up another batch this weekend. This time ensuring I'm measuring out my CaCl2 correctly. You can find the details for that here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6527536#post6527536

I start with distilled water as a base and build my brewing water by adding salts to the pre-mash heat up.

Here are the water parameters he used:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=MN8X1YK
Keep in mind he's using Baking Soda in the boil kettle to bring up Na and residual alkalinity.

I took those water parameters and worked up a match using the Bru'n Water calculator. I went with a room temp. mash Ph of 5.2 on my last batch. This next batch, I'm going with 5.4.
 
roncruiser said:
I went with this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2jftip/heady_topper_clone/

Read through that thread. The guy did his research and summarized what essentially is a good water profile to use. I brewed up a batch just last weekend using his water profile.

Now, his recipe is different than the one bobbrews outlines, but the water should be the common denominator for whatever HT recipe you choose to go with.

I'm gonna brew up another batch this weekend. This time ensuring I'm measuring out my CaCl2 correctly. You can find the details for that here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6527536#post6527536

I start with distilled water as a base and build my brewing water by adding salts to the pre-mash heat up.

Here are the water parameters he used:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=MN8X1YK
Keep in mind he's using Baking Soda in the boil kettle to bring up Na and residual alkalinity.

I took those water parameters and worked up a match using the Bru'n Water calculator. I went with a room temp. mash Ph of 5.2 on my last batch. This next batch, I'm going with 5.4.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
That BrewersFriend link is really cool, i didn't know you can do that.
 
The_Glue said:
What is a good water profile for this beer? Kimmich mentioned 5.4 mash ph (adjusted for room temp) and lot of sulfates. (btw i find the sulfates interesting, in the Hill Farmstead thread we are hyping cloride instead of sulfates)
Click to expand...

Based off the mineral additions they add to their water, it is very close in profile to Burton Upon Trent. I'm not sure if they also sparge with it. Look a few pages back at my post about this.
 
The_Glue said:
What is a good water profile for this beer? Kimmich mentioned 5.4 mash ph (adjusted for room temp) and lot of sulfates. (btw i find the sulfates interesting, in the Hill Farmstead thread we are hyping cloride instead of sulfates)
Click to expand...
Sorry for the OT, but what Hill Farmstead thread are you referring to? I've searched the forums to no avail.
 
Climber77 said:
Sorry for the OT, but what Hill Farmstead thread are you referring to? I've searched the forums to no avail.
Click to expand...


It's in the general techniques section. Sorry damn iPhone app won't let me post the link. It's a very active post. Lots of good stuff if I do say so myself.
 
Water is extremely important.

While grain bill, mash time, mash temp, mash steps, hops, ibu's, yeast, ferment temp, time and length, and proper carbing and conditioning are important... water is just as important.

I've done a couple muted Heady Topper Clones. Hitting every process step perfectly but assuming my water quality was good enough, and it wasn't.

Leaving out the water profile for a recipe is completely misleading... and not just for the newbs. It should be included in all recipes moving forward. Very bare minimum should include:
Ph
Ca
S04
Cl
Na

Lots of brewers are starting to include water profiles in their recipes, but the greater majority are not.
 
I've yet to get into water, because my tap currently works well for IPAs. I've never really been left wanting for flavor. I'll probably be taking a look at it soon, however
 
TheHairyHop said:
I've yet to get into water, because my tap currently works well for IPAs. I've never really been left wanting for flavor. I'll probably be taking a look at it soon, however
Click to expand...

It's mostly for the brewers that don't have good tap for the style they intend to brew. Also, for brewers that build from distilled or RO alone. Any additional smidgen of information to help complete a recipe helps a lot.

That being said, I'm pretty stoked about the HT clone brew this weekend. I think I have everything in place to make a damn good beer.
 
I plan on brewing this as my next beer using the yeast cake I made with a modified version of the 15 minute pale ale which I pitched today. So far the only water adjustments I ever make is to reduce chloramines with campden tablets and adding a few grams of gypsum to IPA's. I wouldn't mind learning more about water chemistry, but don't know where to start.

What would be good adjustments to make for my water?

Here is what I found. http://fortworthtexas.gov/tapwater/

Ph 7.9 to 8.1
Ca 31.3 to 47.9
S04 23.5 to 36.4
Cl - (chloride) 19.9 to 27.1
Na (sodium) - 18 to 28.1

In general, my LHBS says we have pretty good water for brewing and I have not had any major issues, but not certain what would be good adjustments to make. I do have brewsmith, but haven't used it for any water chemistry and am not sure what all it does there.
 
In general your water needs some help as it pertains to brewing a good IPA. Esp. Heady Topper.

I use the Bru'n Water calculator, but any good water calculator will get you close enough. Take the profile you have now and add salts to match the ideal Heady Topper water profile. Your water looks like it's not going to do much for your HT. It definitely could use some of everything. Esp. SO4, Cl, CA. Na looks fine. Match SO4, Cl and Ca to Heady Topper "ideal" water and see where your Ph stands. Use lactic acid to bring the Ph to 5.4 if need be.
 
roncruiser said:
I went with this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2jftip/heady_topper_clone/

Read through that thread. The guy did his research and summarized what essentially is a good water profile to use. I brewed up a batch just last weekend using his water profile.

Now, his recipe is different than the one bobbrews outlines, but the water should be the common denominator for whatever HT recipe you choose to go with.

I'm gonna brew up another batch this weekend. This time ensuring I'm measuring out my CaCl2 correctly. You can find the details for that here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6527536#post6527536

I start with distilled water as a base and build my brewing water by adding salts to the pre-mash heat up.

Here are the water parameters he used:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=MN8X1YK
Keep in mind he's using Baking Soda in the boil kettle to bring up Na and residual alkalinity.

I took those water parameters and worked up a match using the Bru'n Water calculator. I went with a room temp. mash Ph of 5.2 on my last batch. This next batch, I'm going with 5.4.
Click to expand...

rideincircles said:
I plan on brewing this as my next beer using the yeast cake I made with a modified version of the 15 minute pale ale which I pitched today. So far the only water adjustments I ever make is to reduce chloramines with campden tablets and adding a few grams of gypsum to IPA's. I wouldn't mind learning more about water chemistry, but don't know where to start.

What would be good adjustments to make for my water?

Here is what I found. http://fortworthtexas.gov/tapwater/

Ph 7.9 to 8.1
Ca 31.3 to 47.9
S04 23.5 to 36.4
Cl - (chloride) 19.9 to 27.1
Na (sodium) - 18 to 28.1

In general, my LHBS says we have pretty good water for brewing and I have not had any major issues, but not certain what would be good adjustments to make. I do have brewsmith, but haven't used it for any water chemistry and am not sure what all it does there.
Click to expand...

Read through the first quote. That's should provide you with a good foundation to start off with.
 
I'll post my water profile later tonight after work. Did the work up using Bru'n Water. Used distilled water as a base.
 
Nope! First morning the starter smeker normal peachy, then a few hours later full on hefe.
 

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