Does everyone rack to secondary??

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mangine77

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Quick question. My buddy who is a HARDCORE all grain guy, wins competitions all the time was telling me that he's gotten to a point where he doesn't rack to a carboy anymore.

He does his batch, let's it ferment completely in the first bucket, and when it's ready, he racks it right to the bottling bucket and bottles it.

He said if you're going for color and clarity, you definitely need to rack to a secondary but he swears that it doesn't effect the taste or quality of the beer. He sees the racking as an invitation for contamination or oxidation. And I mean this guy makes some GREAT beer.

I'd love to hear some other opinions on this.
 
I ferment 10 days to 30 days in the first bucket, then crash cool for a few days to 35 degrees, then rack to keg. I don't even secondary my Apfelwein.
 
This was discussed recently and most came to the same consensus as your friend. I don't use a secondary much anymore and my beer is plenty clear and tastes great.
 
No more secondary for me. Standard is 3 weeks in primary, and I now have the ability to crash cool so I'll probably do that for the 3rd week.

still going smooth. I'll try turning off the fan tonight, see what happens.
 
I rarely do a secondary. If I wanted to long term age something, I will use a secondary. Most of my beers are 2-4 weeks, then crash cooled and kegged like EdWort.
 
Sometimes for dry hopping, I use a secondary. Otherwise, I haven't used one in quite a while. Maybe for a big beer that needs some aging, and I'll use for for all lagers for secondary/lagering.

Three- four weeks primary, then to bottles or kegs. Usually kegs- I hate bottling.
 
The consensus is that there is no consensus and it's a personal choice. I rack so I can free up a primary and leave the brew in glass for a month.

It's all personal choice.
 
I swing both way myself :D (when it comes to secondary). Depends on the beer and my time. I like to age beers in bulk in the secondary but I also have been know to leave beer in the primary for 4 - 12 weeks and bottle or keg it.
 
I used to ferment in a pair of 6.5 gallon glass carboys then secondary in 5 gallon carboys, but now I ferment in a Blichmann conical. I only have one conical, so after two weeks, I transfer to a pair of cornies to free up my fermenter for another batch. The beer conditions in the cornies until I'm ready to bottle. I am building a kegerator but it isn't done yet.
 
I don't filter before I ferment. I then leave it in the primary for 3-4 weeks, crash cool it, and bottle it. My last three beers have been done this way and they have all been tasty and crystal clear. I think my Belgian Wit was almost too clear.
 
No Secondary Needed (90% of the time).
Leave your young beer on the yeast cake!!

GRINDER: Shuffling beer around only gives the appearance of freeing up space, while making more of a mess to clean up... (AKA why not just use the glass "secondary" carboy as a primary? -that's what I do).
 
Well, I have done without the secondary when I'm low on beer. It's fine.

But my secondary to primary capacity is about 4:1...I have the room. So if I don't get lazy or behind in my brewing, I'll let it sit in the secondary for 1-3 months. It works for me.
 
It's funny how trends change over time.

In the not too distant past, many brewers aspired to fly sparge to get the best yields from their grains; now most brewers (judging by responses on this board, anyway) prefer batch sparging and some even claim it gives better yields than fly sparging.

Not too long ago, the most sound and sage recommendation from experienced brewers to newbies was to get your beer off the trub and into a "conditioning" vessel (it's not for secondary fermentation, they'd say) as quickly as possible after fermentation stops to avoid autolysis (cannibal yeasties eating their own), and to give the beer time to clear and let sediment fall out. Now many brewers seem to skip the conditioning altogether, and go straight to the keg or bottle from a long, three to four week primary. Occasionally you even hear from some brewers that they let their beer remain in primary for absurdly long times, up to 12 weeks. A couple of years ago on this board you'd have been told to dump it if it was on the cake that long.

My change from batch sparging to fly sparging has brought me a 16% improvement in efficiency, so I think I'll stick with fly sparging. I still get my beer off the trub and yeast cake within two weeks, and then condition my beer in another vessel for several weeks before bottling. I think my beer is much improved by that process although I haven't done any comparison testing.
 
I use a secondary on big beers. It does free up the primary which is really practical. I agree that racking is not the best thing for a beer.
I've tried tertiary once and didn't notice any improvement, just less trub in the carboy.
 
unless I'm dry hopping or adding fruit, I leave mine in primary for 3-4 weeks then to bottle....this improves clarity and imparts a cleaner taste to me than racking to secondary.

Here's what Palmer has to say...

From John Palmer's book "how to brew":

The fermentation of malt sugars into beer is a complicated biochemical process. It is more than just the conversion of sugar to alcohol, which can be regarded as the primary activity. Total fermentation is better defined as three phases, the Adaptation or Lagtime phase, the Primary or Attenuative phase and a Secondary or Conditioning phase. The yeast do not end Phase 2 before beginning Phase 3, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning processes occur more slowly. As the majority of simple sugars are consumed, more and more of the yeast will transition to eating the larger, more complex sugars and early yeast by-products. This is why beer (and wine) improves with age to a degree, as long as they are on the yeast. Beer that has been filtered or pasteurized will not benefit from aging.



The conditioning process is a function of the yeast. The vigorous, primary stage is over, the majority of the wort sugars have been converted to alcohol, and a lot of the yeast are going dormant; but there is still yeast activity. During the earlier phases, many different compounds were produced by the yeast in addition to ethanol and CO2, e.g., acetaldehyde, esters, amino acids, ketones- diacetyl, pentanedione, dimethyl sulfide, etc. Once the easy food is gone, the yeast start re-processing these by-products. Diacetyl and pentanedione are two ketones that have buttery and honey-like flavors. These compounds are considered flaws when present in large amounts and can cause flavor stability problems during storage. Acetaldehyde is an aldehyde that has a pronounced green apple smell and taste. It is an intermediate compound in the production of ethanol. The yeast reduce these compounds during the later stages of fermentation.

The yeast also produce an array of fusel alcohols during primary fermentation in addition to ethanol. Fusels are higher molecular weight alcohols that often give harsh solvent-like tastes to beer. During secondary fermentation, the yeast convert these alcohols to more pleasant tasting fruity esters. Warmer temperatures encourage ester production.
 
unless I'm dry hopping or adding fruit, I leave mine in primary for 3-4 weeks then to bottle....this improves clarity and imparts a cleaner taste to me than racking to secondary.

Here's what Palmer has to say...

From John Palmer's book "how to brew":

Dropping to the secondary the beer is still "on the yeast", he's referring to filtered/pasteurized beer...It's all the same though, primary and secondary will be going on no matter what vessel it's in.
 
I do, I do...even my Hefe Weizens...:ban:

If you bottle I HIGHLY recommend a secondary for clearing. The time spent clearing and aging allows more yeast to fall out.

One of my mottos is: The clearer the brew that goes into the bottle the cleaner the brew comes out of it. ;)
 
I do, I do...even my Hefe Weizens...:ban:

If you bottle I HIGHLY recommend a secondary for clearing. The time spent clearing and aging allows more yeast to fall out.

One of my mottos is: The clearer the brew that goes into the bottle the cleaner the brew comes out of it. ;)

The way I see it, if I leave a beer in primary 3 weeks and someone else makes the same beer but puts it in the primary for 1 week and secondary for 2 weeks, there is no reason why his should be any clearer. I primary in a ported better bottle so I can rack carefully. So I guess "time spent" is the key.

Anything negatively buoyant in the beer will fall out given time. Doesn't matter if the yeast cake is there or not. If you get into extended periods of time, then I can see using a secondary.
 
I ferment 10 days to 30 days in the first bucket, then crash cool for a few days to 35 degrees, then rack to keg. I don't even secondary my Apfelwein.

I've seen most of your toys Ed, I can't believe you still ferment in buckets! :eek:

To op: I don't rack to secondary much these days, just a long primary and a careful rack to the keg...
 
Personally, I've never used a secondary. I see it as a unnecessary risk of potential infection and exposure to oxygen during transfer. Plus, I'm just lazy. ;)

I typically ferment for 10 - 21 days (primary only), add gelatin finings, crash cool (ale to 50F, lager to 40F) for 3 - 14 days, and then bottle/keg.
 
Another reason I don't secondary is minimizing wort loss. Each time I rack off of trub I leave X amount of beer behind, whether I'm racking off of a thick yeast cake or thin sediment. I'd rather only do that once.
 
The way I see it, if I leave a beer in primary 3 weeks and someone else makes the same beer but puts it in the primary for 1 week and secondary for 2 weeks, there is no reason why his should be any clearer. I primary in a ported better bottle so I can rack carefully. So I guess "time spent" is the key.

Anything negatively buoyant in the beer will fall out given time. Doesn't matter if the yeast cake is there or not. If you get into extended periods of time, then I can see using a secondary.

Sure, it's the same answer as 1+2=3 or 4-1=3, but not exactly the same process. ;)
 
I secondary. I fly sparge. I bottle/cask condition basically everything instead of force carbing.

I think it makes me feel like I'm more involved. Like a big yeast or something.
 
Check out my sig. If the original poster PM's me, I'll give em credit for it. I thought that was funny as hell.
 
Here's what Noonan says about racking:

"Employing up to 5 percent strongly fermenting kraeusen beer at racking produces a stronger start of secondary fermentation and a better overall fermentation. This absolutely must be done when yeast performance during primary fermentation has been poor, as it replenishes the degraded culture."

"Racking must be done without rousing or splashing to prevent oxygen from entering the solution"
 
Let's see if I can find what I posted about a week ago . . . . Ah, yes:

Texlaw said:
Oh, boy. Here comes this fun again. There are a few reasons why "secondary fermenter" is not a misnomer. For many brewers, some fermentation does occur in the secondary.

First, fermentation does not always complete in the primary. Racking beer to the secodnary rouses the yeast and often results in further attenuation. Getting those last few points out can be very important if you are bottling. Most bottle bombs are not the result of overpriming, in a sense, but of failing to reach full attentuation before priming. Even if you are kegging and want the clearest beer you can get, that little bit of fermentation in the secondary will help you along.

Second, some beer styles (or recipes) call for a second fermentation by adding more fermentables. In those cases, the brewer usually wants to rack off the old trub before adding those fermentables.

Finally, the practice of an extended primary fermentation, followed by immediate packaging, has only recently become common. Back before a homebrewer could reliably get excellent quality yeast, you wanted to get your beer off the inital trub as soon as possible or risk nasty consequences (e.g., autolysis). Often, that meant racking after fermentation had slowed but not completed, usually within the first several days after pitching. Fermentation clearly continued and completed in the secondary. Because many brewers who have been around for a good while don't like to fix things that ain't broke, they still follow that practice.

I still advise and use a secondary, even though I have high confidence in today's yeasts. I find [racking to a secondary] makes my brewing more consistant and, frankly, better. I also leave beer in the primary for at least 10 days after visible yeast activity begins, so that there is plenty of time for the yeast to both have its party and clean up, afterwards. I've tried a couple batches where I just leave the beer in the primary for three to four weeks and then kegging straight out, and I was slightly less happy with the results, both in the beer and in the perceived convenience (i.e., I did not see any extra convenience, as it was a greater hassle keeping trub out of the keg). On the other hand, I know many brewers who go straight from the primary to the package (or bottling bucket) with great results. Do what suits you.

Just as an aside, there is virtually no risk of introducing contamination when racking to the secondary, so long as you practice proper sanitation. You have a finished beer, there, still with quite a bit of yeast suspended within it. That is not a happy place for intruders to find refuge. You do, however, need to consider oxidation, but that also is not a problem with proper practice (e.g., avoid splashing, use a properly sized vessel). If you can purge your secondary with CO2, do that. If not, the CO2 that comes out of solution when you rack should provide plenty of protection.

As another aside, comparing homebrewing to industry brewing is a poor analogy, unless you have analgous equipment and practices. For those homebrewers with conical fermenters and who very quickly repitch slurry, the secondary might be a true bright tank. For the rest of us, not so much.

So, yes, I rack. I haven't been a "newb" in quite a while, either - at least, not at brewing. Brew as you like, but be real careful about looking down your nose at another brewer with a different technique.


TL
 
I do only 13 days in primary for my 50 to 60 gravity ales, then bottle, because I'm brewing again on day 14 and need my fermentation chamber free. I've had no problems moving along that quickly. The ales clear up fine with 2 weeks in the bottle. Good thing, because I would hate to have to wait longer than that.
 
I have never used a secondary for beer brewing. That said, I plan on using a secondary for bulk aging of my 999BW just because it will probably (hopefully) be in there for 6 - 8 months before bottling.
 
Well I still secondary unless its in the conical. Reason being if I keg it I will drink it before I should . This way the beer isn't green and I have beers in the pipeline all the time, this weekend "Its Porter time" in a bad imitation of MC Hammer:ban:
 
I did my first all-grain IPA today and was planning a 1 week primary and a 2 week secondary since I wanted to dry-hop. Can you dry-hop in the primary instead and just let it sit for 3 weeks??
 
I'm a noob here in the forums but have always racked off to a secondary. When I was getting started I'd read that you didn't want the beer sitting on the trub and potentially dead yeast for too long. I haven't had a bad batch in two years and generally get nice clear beer unless I forget to throw the Irish moss in (did that last time). Also forces me to let the beer age a bit more before I keg and I usually do some dry hopping in the secondary although I have dry hopped in the primary with good results.
 
Here's what Noonan says about racking:

"Employing up to 5 percent strongly fermenting kraeusen beer at racking produces a stronger start of secondary fermentation and a better overall fermentation. This absolutely must be done when yeast performance during primary fermentation has been poor, as it replenishes the degraded culture."

"Racking must be done without rousing or splashing to prevent oxygen from entering the solution"

This "secondary fermentation" is the process of bottle conditioning or krausening, creating a small fermentation in the bottles/cask to get carbonation. It is not refering to anything that most homebrewers think of as a "secondary".

Most homebrewing pratices are taken from commercial breweries and scaled down. Since we don't have the need to move as much beer through our production lines as possible, we don't need to empty out the fermenter. The only reason that conditioning tanks exist is to allow for the production of more beer. That said, I only use a conditioning tank for long conditioning such as lagers so I can free up my primary, or when dry hopping because yeast can cause hop oils to precipitate out of solution. Otherwise, no conditioning tank neccesary.
 
It's funny how trends change over time.

In the not too distant past, many brewers aspired to fly sparge to get the best yields from their grains; now most brewers (judging by responses on this board, anyway) prefer batch sparging and some even claim it gives better yields than fly sparging.

Not too long ago, the most sound and sage recommendation from experienced brewers to newbies was to get your beer off the trub and into a "conditioning" vessel (it's not for secondary fermentation, they'd say) as quickly as possible after fermentation stops to avoid autolysis (cannibal yeasties eating their own), and to give the beer time to clear and let sediment fall out. Now many brewers seem to skip the conditioning altogether, and go straight to the keg or bottle from a long, three to four week primary. Occasionally you even hear from some brewers that they let their beer remain in primary for absurdly long times, up to 12 weeks. A couple of years ago on this board you'd have been told to dump it if it was on the cake that long.

My change from batch sparging to fly sparging has brought me a 16% improvement in efficiency, so I think I'll stick with fly sparging. I still get my beer off the trub and yeast cake within two weeks, and then condition my beer in another vessel for several weeks before bottling. I think my beer is much improved by that process although I haven't done any comparison testing.

That's for sure -- I've noticed the change just in the relatively short time (less than a year) I've been around on this forum.
 
This "secondary fermentation" is the process of bottle conditioning or krausening, creating a small fermentation in the bottles/cask to get carbonation. It is not refering to anything that most homebrewers think of as a "secondary".

Most homebrewing pratices are taken from commercial breweries and scaled down. Since we don't have the need to move as much beer through our production lines as possible, we don't need to empty out the fermenter. The only reason that conditioning tanks exist is to allow for the production of more beer. That said, I only use a conditioning tank for long conditioning such as lagers so I can free up my primary, or when dry hopping because yeast can cause hop oils to precipitate out of solution. Otherwise, no conditioning tank neccesary.

Noonan is specifically talking about lagers but the idea for Ales is the same and he's not referring to bottling or casking but secondary that homebrewers use:
"The purpose of racking is to seperate the beer from decaying yeast cells and flavor impairing precipitates. Care must be taken that no yeast sediment or trub is carried along into the secondary fermentation....Cone-bottomed "unitank" fermenters preclude the necessity for racking to a secondary/lagering tank. Trub is discharged from the bottom outlet throughout the course of primary fermentation."

He then goes on to describe lagering, terminal gravity, fining, and finally casking and/or bottling.
 
Noonan is specifically talking about lagers but the idea for Ales is the same and he's not referring to bottling or casking but secondary that homebrewers use:
"The purpose of racking is to seperate the beer from decaying yeast cells and flavor impairing precipitates. Care must be taken that no yeast sediment or trub is carried along into the secondary fermentation....Cone-bottomed "unitank" fermenters preclude the necessity for racking to a secondary/lagering tank. Trub is discharged from the bottom outlet throughout the course of primary fermentation."

He then goes on to describe lagering, terminal gravity, fining, and finally casking and/or bottling.

I haven't read the book myself, but tell me, why on earth would anyone add 5% actively fermenting beer to their conditioning tank. And why would this matter...
Care must be taken that no yeast sediment or trub is carried along into the secondary fermentation
...if you are just going to add more yeast back in the with the 5%.

The process of krausening is well documented, and is for the production of bottle and cask conditioned beers in order to get carbonation.
 
I haven't read the book myself, but tell me, why on earth would anyone add 5% actively fermenting beer to their conditioning tank. And why would this matter... ...if you are just going to add more yeast back in the 5%.

The process of krausening is well documented, and is for the production of bottle and cask conditioned beers in order to get carbonation.

Basically you answered your own question, but, also it is for the reduction of diacetyl.

BTW, I generally secondary, but, don't krausen my brew.
 
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