I went "pro" - What it actually takes to do so

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either way... it's not a problem. We were profitable after appoximately two weeks in terms of monthly revenues vs. expenses and we'll make our entire out-of-pocket investment back this month (Oct).

Gotta get our azzes in gear and get our 3 bll equip set up.... should be in the next week.
 
That doubles your production, right? I am guessing that you would need additional accounts to handle the extra volume or do you envision the same accounts and growler sales will take all the demand?
 
That doubles your production, right? I am guessing that you would need additional accounts to handle the extra volume or do you envision the same accounts and growler sales will take all the demand?

It would double our batch size but we're only brewing twice a week now... and our expectation is that will increase as well so we think our production will likely grow to about four times what it currently is.

Yes, we'll definitely need more accounts but we're not worried about that. Since our beer has been on the market (only about 7-8 months), we've had to turn down over 20 bars/restaurants that have come to us and asked if they could put our beers on tap. We also have a distributor who has reached out to us more than once and is basically waiting in the wings, waiting for us to give that a green light.
 
That is great.

it's been pretty cool. We've been really lucky and we're really happy we tackled the whole thing the way we did. I think I said it earlier in this thread... i'm not saying we did things the "right" way... or a way folks need to do things, but for us personally, it feels like we have stumbled into the right choices so far. We'll see.

Getting our next jump in capacity and then production done is really exciting and it has the potential to make things turn from a "oh, that's cute... you guys are selling a couple kegs" situation into, "umm... this is serious stuff"... pretty quickly. We've just kind of held on for dear life and let the brewery do its own growing so far and it's been crazy.
 
revelation said:
How regularly are you able to supply Kinsale? What do you send them?

It depends on what we have in stock. We are delivering between just two and as many as eight kegs at a whack (1/6th kegs) of any of our beers (it varies) depending on what we have available and what they happen to be in the mood for. We are making deliveries once a week for small orders and once every two weeks for larger ones. Then we go through quite a few kegs at our other account where they have our IPA and Blonde on their own taps full time.
 
Hey CapeBrewer,
Wanted to say a few things, first off, congratulations! I've just finished reading this whole thread after a few days, and it is fascinating for me. I'm a small time home brewer with big dreams, and hope next year to be accepted into the brewing program at a nearby college. Its the first of its kind in Western Canada, and just opened up this year for students. I've very excited for the learning in that course, and I thought I would ask you... how did you come about your brewing knowledge, equipment set-up skills and the like. Did you just learn by brewing over time (if my memory serves me you've been brewing for 20 years?)

I'm really excited for Bog Iron, and wish you guys the best of luck, success, fame and eventual boob flashes!
In Canada, Alberta specifically, we are restrained by regulations which destroys nano-brewing, forcing any brewhouse to have a 500,000L a year minimum capacity if you want to distribute. How have you found the transition from small nano to larger nano, and how hard do you think it would have been to jump up to having tanks that are 1000L straight from the get-go, as I would have to do...
 
In Canada, Alberta specifically, we are restrained by regulations which destroys nano-brewing, forcing any brewhouse to have a 500,000L a year minimum capacity if you want to distribute.

Wow, that's crazy. Is that the law everywhere in Canada or just Alberta?

I'd be looking to move if I were you - the weather is a lot nicer down here. :)
 
Haha, yeah no doubt LovesIPA. It is only in Alberta, which is odd because we have very lax distribution laws, so all the other provinces can sell to us, but we can't produce in the nano-brew fashion. We are forced to either open a brewpub and serve onsite only, or become a microbrewery right off the bat... 1000L fermentation vessels minimum etc. I am part of a large group writing letters and fightign for change for this... it could mean alot of downtime after I graduate...
 
How have you found the transition from small nano to larger nano, and how hard do you think it would have been to jump up to having tanks that are 1000L straight from the get-go, as I would have to do...

I couldn't imagine having to make that leap right out of the gates... that's a BIG jump.

We are moving into 500L fermenters now that'll we'll be able to come a hair shy of filling given our pots and I think we've really maxed out the "economical" way we're operating. When I say, "economical", I mean we haven't spent $100k on a commercial brewhouse and are still brewing the old fashioned way with large pots.

I don't see how you could possibly keep that kind of capacity up with pots and a brewhouse of any size that would accomodate that kind of volume... even used, you're looking at tens of thousands of dollars. And that's just the brewhouse... fermenters will run you a solid $5k a pop. You'll need a heavy duty commercial glycol chiller. Hell... just the chill plates to chill the wort coming out of the boil kettle will run you a few grand. The space to put all of this stuff in. Oh... and then don't forget about the several hundred kegs you'll need at... even insanely cheap... call it, $75 a pop... you're talking tens of thousands of dollars in just kegs.

I wouldn't even consider a jump like that unless I had half a million dollars in my pocket I know I could burn through really quickly.

That is why we went the route we did... we could put up a relatively small amount of cash and elbow-grease our way up which would allow us to, if we didn't like doing it or it just didn't work out, simply pull the plug and walk away. If you have regulatory issues that prevent you from doing that... wow... like I was saying... that's a BIG jump right out of the gates.
 
In Florida, I checked on the ridiculous laws,and as best I could understand it, the second tier distributor is holding all the cards ( and cash).
It seems that the brewer has to guarantee supply of product and can't simply pull the plug without getting into trouble (probably unless your going out of business).
I need to visit a local nano brew pub and ask the guy a bunch of questions about the FL laws. I think he is strictly dispense on premesis. To distribute (and there is no self distribute law in FL) entails much complication and contracts with distributors. I don't think there are any minimum brewing amounts like in Alberta however. I think if you're over so many bbls your license and credentials cost more.

Glad to hear things are going so well for you! Are you going to use an AC glycol chiller hack for the. Newer larger fermenters? This escaped the UL requirement I'm guessing. What about your burners, will those be big enough for the bigger volume boils? Professional brewing equipment is crazy expensive...
Keep carrying the torch for us guys watching from the sidelines!

TD
 
No... we bought a large commercial glycol chiller for the fermenters. Our little DIY system was fantastic but we had outgrown it.

The burners should be fine. We can only run them at about 60% for our 1.5bbl pots and those pots don't entirely cover all four burners. Our new 3bbl pots will... so... we're pretty confident that they'll handle the larger pots without too much of a problem. We'll see next Weds when we fire 'em up.
 
Cape is on the money about the cost of starting out with anything resembling a production brewery. I'm looking at 7bbl equipment and I have scoured the Earth in order to come up with a solution for a BK, MLT and HLT combo using electric that runs me around 35k And that's with me having my electrician put together the control panel on the cheap rather than buying a pre-fab one. I'll also be doing all the piping etc.

Then you have to deal with transfer pumps and hoses, cleaning solutions, waste management... And trust me, we're just getting started.

I'm looking at "temporary" fermenters that I will eventually replace with Glycol cooled ones but for now, even using DIY plastic fermenters in an ambient-temp controlled room is going to cost thousands of dollars.

THEN you have to look at the kegs etc. You need enough kegs to fit your pipeline which means depending on your carbonation method and aging period you may need anywhere from 3 to 6 X the number of kegs you anticipate rotating through your accounts weekly.

Did I mention that you need all your electrical work signed off on by the electricians and your floor drain and plumbing all needs to be signed off on by the plumber. Let's not forget the building contractor who has to sign off on the structure(s) where you brewery and/or taproom will be.

You may also have to talk an architect into providing you professional drawings of your space marking where all the equipment, outlets, lights drains, vents etc. will go. Imagine walking through a giant crowd of professional pickpockets with your life-savings in loose $100 bills in your pockets. That's pretty close to how you feel at the end of every day.

I was one of those guys who wanted to disprove everyone who said "you can't do it for under $50 or $60k" Turns out, I can't do it for under about $120k. And that's flat-ass cutting costs in every conceivable place. That doesn't even take into account the licensing, bonding, legal stuff. Nor does it take into account the monthly overhead once you get going. I'm looking at running at a bare-bones level in terms of staffing etc. and I'm NOT planning on being paid personally for the first 6 months or so. Despite that, I'm still looking at a minimum burn rate of around 6 to 8 k a month by the time you pay staff, cover taxes, pay rent, pay utilities and plan for your buffer.

I'm not interested in discouraging anyone. The above talks are in reference to a fairly decent sized production micro setup, at least in terms of capacity. (I'm not even considering bottling or canning right now. My head would absolutely explode if I had to look at quotes for lines.)

All the above said, If it's your dream go after it. But you DO need to realize that staring a brewery or a brewpub is very challenging and the absolute smallest part of starting, owning and running a brewery is brewing. There's a brewery operations manual out there somewhere you can purchase and it's a great book because a great deal of it doesn't talk AT ALL about brewing. The author spends an entire 3rd of the book talking about checklists and managing staff and working deals with contractors. Some folks are irritated because they are expecting the author to talk more about cheap fermenters and mash tuns, when in fact he assumes if you're ready to get into professional brewing you probably have an idea what equipment you want to use.

You want to know what kind of crap you have to think about and create a spreadsheet for and put aside money for? How much toilet paper do you have and who's turn is it to clean the bathrooms? How often do you sweep? How are you getting rid of 400 lbs of grain each day? What if farmer Steve doesn't show up on Tuesday? Do you have staff or facilities to deal with the spent grain?

I mean **** you don't even begin to think about becomes the very thing that will cause you to fail because... well you didn't think about it.

Wow... I think I just cried a little in everyone's beer. I'm not pushing anyone away from chasing the dream, but make sure you pack some energy bars and gatorade cause it's a marathon man.
 
No... we bought a large commercial glycol chiller for the fermenters. Our little DIY system was fantastic but we had outgrown it.

The burners should be fine. We can only run them at about 60% for our 1.5bbl pots and those pots don't entirely cover all four burners. Our new 3bbl pots will... so... we're pretty confident that they'll handle the larger pots without too much of a problem. We'll see next Weds when we fire 'em up.

Take pictures!
 
Cape and or muddy creek have you guys looked into leasing kegs through keg credit or micro star? We only own about half of our kegs and lease the rest. Granted we go through several hundred kegs a week and I'm not sure why leasing vs owning costs but it might be worth looking into.
 
Oh yeah!! Haha!! That's one little point I conveniently left out (unintentionally... honesty)...

None of us (myself and two partners) have taken a dime out as compensation. It's been free labor since we started. Fck... We even pay full price to fill our own growlers.

I could take a pic of the chiller but trust me.., You will be un-impressed. It looks like a small black chest freezer with a few extra fittings and and blinky light things on it. It's not very sexy.

Well.... Its sexy to US cuz we benefit from what it does but to look at it... Not exactly beer pron.
 
I'll see your ugly junk glycol system and raise you an ugly junk sealed-green-rocked and insulated room with air-conditioners and dangling temperature probes attached to PIDs.
 
But yes... MuddyCreek ain't exaggeratin'. We went through a huge chunk of all of that just to get our tiny space up and have a ton more as our tiny space is now starting to fund a much larger system.

Hey on one happy note !! We got our Pourer's License yesterday!! Whooo hoooo!! So we can now legally give samples AND sell pints for consumption on premises (just like a bar) out of the brewery. Which is sweet.

Yeah... That was fun getting that. We applied for it in MAY. Certified letters to abutters, public hearing, vote by the Board of Selectmen, oh... The law changed so the Board of Selectmen have to re-vote... Approved! Yayyy!! Oh... Wait... We forgot you need to have the Building Inspector and the Fire Dept inspect the place for the license... "Oh, you need lighted exit signs"... Pull electrical permit, get electrician to mount two lights... Now it has to he inspected! Fire Cheif comes back out, inspects it "yup... Those are lit signs"... Sends for to Board of Selectmen... THEN they issue the permit. Whoooo hooo!!

MAY we applied.

That is one aspect I didn't appreciate about "the dream". You need $5k and six months of forms to wipe your azz.
 
MuddyCreek said:
I'll see your ugly junk glycol system and raise you an ugly junk sealed-green-rocked and insulated room with air-conditioners and dangling temperature probes attached to PIDs.

Haha.... Not anymore! Our glycol chiller is all brandy new right outta the box!


Yeah... We considered the ugly junk A/C cold room but we ultimately went with the ugly junk glycol chiller, variable headspace fermenters, wrapped in soft drawn copper coils and then insulated with the silver foil/bubblewrap duct insulation. PIDs for each fermenter with mechanical ball valves. We upgraded to a new commercial glycol chiller and the set-up is straight pimpin. Works great. We can control temps really dead on (and we vary our temps a lot for our different beers) and then crash em down to 38 degrees right in the fermenters.

For cold storage and our "ambient air controlled" brite, we got a walk-in off craigslist for short money. Because we can crash the fermenters so low, we can rack to the brite at that temp and then maintain it easily with the air-cooling in the walk-in.
 
Not in the very near future.

Our GC is meeting with the Building Inspector this afternoon and we will hopefully have our building permit in the next couple of days. Once we get that, we are praying the renovation on our new space will be fairly quick. Once that space is done, our hours will likely expand. We just don't have the space (or beer) right now to expand hours.
 
Cape Brewing said:
But yes... MuddyCreek ain't exaggeratin'. We went through a huge chunk of all of that just to get our tiny space up and have a ton more as our tiny space is now starting to fund a much larger system. Hey on one happy note !! We got our Pourer's License yesterday!! Whooo hoooo!! So we can now legally give samples AND sell pints for consumption on premises (just like a bar) out of the brewery. Which is sweet. Yeah... That was fun getting that. We applied for it in MAY. Certified letters to abutters, public hearing, vote by the Board of Selectmen, oh... The law changed so the Board of Selectmen have to re-vote... Approved! Yayyy!! Oh... Wait... We forgot you need to have the Building Inspector and the Fire Dept inspect the place for the license... "Oh, you need lighted exit signs"... Pull electrical permit, get electrician to mount two lights... Now it has to he inspected! Fire Cheif comes back out, inspects it "yup... Those are lit signs"... Sends for to Board of Selectmen... THEN they issue the permit. Whoooo hooo!! MAY we applied. That is one aspect I didn't appreciate about "the dream". You need $5k and six months of forms to wipe your azz.

So much for the land of the free. The land of the over regulated is more like it. It's truly insane. The only freedoms are if you pay for it. Just don't get into trouble for selling to underage or under cover agents after all this trouble.

Way to persevere.

TD
 
Can't wait to visit you guys! Thanks for all of your documenting for the rest of us "dreamers" in MA. Have you visited the nano guys out in Brimfield yet?
 
stamandster said:
Can't wait to visit you guys! Thanks for all of your documenting for the rest of us "dreamers" in MA. Have you visited the nano guys out in Brimfield yet?

Treehouse? I personally haven't been out there but one of my two partners has been there a couple if times and we've met those guys a couple of times. They have a really nice set up out there. Its a shame what they're going through now with the town.
 
Treehouse? I personally haven't been out there but one of my two partners has been there a couple if times and we've met those guys a couple of times. They have a really nice set up out there. Its a shame what they're going through now with the town.

I've read really good things about them. What problems are they having with the town?
 
How much if you don't mind me asking do you think you've put in to start up and additionally since you've started up? Also was hard to get the accounts going and people to start taking on your beer? For example did you allow people to do a "test run"
 
I'm not comfortable putting a dollar figure out there and besides, it isn't going to be terribly relevant since everyone's situation is going to be very very different and that end number is going to fluctuate wildly. I think I mentioned before though, if anyone is thinking about doing something really really tiny like we did... you're talking tens of thousands... not "I've got $1,800 and my homebrew pots so I should be good". And we haven't put in any more money out of our pockets since we started. But, we also haven't taken a dime out of it either. We've reinvested everthing we've made.
 
First off, I have to say this is probably the most informative thread I have found on this subject here and I'm glad you go into detail about the work and b.s. it takes to get off the ground. I started watching this thread when you first posted it and then I was like lots of guys here wishing to be in your shoes. I personally am seriously under-funded to take this kind of venture on solo, but have recently been approached by a group of guys to be part of a brewery that is opening so I no longer have to worry about funding it myself. Our plan is almost identical to what you have done with the exception that we are going to lease our kegs and I am going to be responsible for our "yeast lab" as we are having proprietary strains created for us. Your input here has been tremendous and I hope your expansion goes well!
 
I'm not comfortable putting a dollar figure out there and besides, it isn't going to be terribly relevant since everyone's situation is going to be very very different and that end number is going to fluctuate wildly. I think I mentioned before though, if anyone is thinking about doing something really really tiny like we did... you're talking tens of thousands... not "I've got $1,800 and my homebrew pots so I should be good". And we haven't put in any more money out of our pockets since we started. But, we also haven't taken a dime out of it either. We've reinvested everthing we've made.

I can get you a brewery started today. I just need about....$3.50!!

"It was about that moment I realized it was that god damn Lockness monster!! I said damn you monster! Get out of here! Ain't nobody gonna give you nothing!"

"I gave him some money"

"You did what woman!!!!!!!"

Sorry, I had a moment there.:fro:
 
Cape Brewing said:
I'm not comfortable putting a dollar figure out there and besides, it isn't going to be terribly relevant since everyone's situation is going to be very very different and that end number is going to fluctuate wildly. I think I mentioned before though, if anyone is thinking about doing something really really tiny like we did... you're talking tens of thousands... not "I've got $1,800 and my homebrew pots so I should be good". And we haven't put in any more money out of our pockets since we started. But, we also haven't taken a dime out of it either. We've reinvested everthing we've made.
So I'm assuming you started off with at least 75-100k in buying all of your things to start off with a 1.5 barrel system. Does that sound about right?
 
No, it's not. We didn't start with a 3bbl system and I'm not going to give you a dollar number. Like I was saying, it doesn't mean anything.

Depending on a large number of variables that are going to be unique from situation to situation, the number is going to fluctuate wildy. If I give folks a number, it instantly implies, "Oh you can go out and start a brewery for $X!".... which is not reality. We got very lucky with some things and very unlucky with others... and where those factors, which could go either way from case to case, fall out... as well as how someone specifically decides to approach things... will produce dramatically different numbers.
 
Just got through this whole thread and just want to say congratulations on your success and thanks for all of the information. I like to think that some day I'll open up a brewery and it is exciting just to read about how y'all did it and how successful you are.

How is your efficiency though? Are y'all having any problems maintaining a consistent efficiency from batch to batch? I visited a small brewery last year and they said it is hard it was to maintain a steady efficiency across batches. I can't remember if that was due to their equipment or what but do you run into any of those problems?
 
Our efficiency is okay... Between 75-80%but given how small we are (and I have always been this way as a homebrewer)... We could care less what our efficiency is unless it is way off.

We are using pots... No mash rakes... and I'm sure our crush isn't as dead-on perfect as it could be but I think you are really splitting hairs at that point. As long as it is consistent and predictable, we have no desire to try to max out efficiency. My own personal view (which counts for nothing) is that chasing max efficiency has many more risks than potential benefits.

It is very consistent and we haven't noticed any fluctuation so it isn't something that even enters our minds.
 
One of their greatest episodes

I say top 3 for me. Scott Tennerman must die "Let me taste your tears Scott", and The Losing Edge " ¡Pueblo, no bueno! ¡Pueblo es muy mal!" "What, is this a Communist country or something?! I thought this was America!" Kills me every time.
 
That's interesting. I always figured commercial breweries of all sizes would try to max out their efficiency and have to be super consistent but that makes a lot of sense. As long as it comes out consistent and passes your quality standards then you're golden.

Thanks for the info
 

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