Vienna vs. Pale Ale Malt (e.g. Maris Otter)?

To this point in my brewing progression, I have been using canadian 2-row as my base malt and adding speacialty malts from there based on the style. I want to start playing around with other base malts like Marris Otter, Vienna, Munich etc. but before I do I have a question for the folks here who have used these malts. What is the difference between Vienna (3-4L) and a Pale Ale Malt (such as Maris Otter, 2-3L)? Vienna has a slightly higher color, indicating that it is likely kilned to a higher temperature but not much. So what exactly would the flavor differences be? Is it worth using both malts or could I get away with one and use it interchangeably for both? Any and all input welcome.

Cheers,

Greg

I have not used MO (yet), but I got a sack of Vienna and have really been enjoying the differences compared to 2row (I have candian 2 row as well). I would say there are going to be specific flavors to MO, so I will wait to hear folks chime in on this.

My brewery is trying to accept a house flavor that buys some grains in bulk and subs for others... I will use vienna in place of munich or MO... I know this is not getting to the same place as the original recipe, but right now, I am brewing for my self and my neighborhood, so it is all good for me. For now.

My opinion will likely change after I buy a bag of MO next time!

I've used Vienna as a base in my last couple brews, it really just has more of Malty presence than two row. Not necesarily sweeter, just more flavor. I use MO as a base malt in my Pale Ale, but I also use some Carapils and about lb of other crystal malts, so it's hard to say what MO really brings to the table. But it's a pretty full flavored beer, Take that FWIW. If you have time and space you could do a SMaSH with each, then you'll really know. I did a Vienna SMaSH with Simcoe and I'm loving it.

gregdech said:

To this point in my brewing progression, I have been using canadian 2-row as my base malt and adding speacialty malts from there based on the style. I want to start playing around with other base malts like Marris Otter, Vienna, Munich etc. but before I do I have a question for the folks here who have used these malts. What is the difference between Vienna (3-4L) and a Pale Ale Malt (such as Maris Otter, 2-3L)? Vienna has a slightly higher color, indicating that it is likely kilned to a higher temperature but not much. So what exactly would the flavor differences be? Is it worth using both malts or could I get away with one and use it interchangeably for both? Any and all input welcome.

Cheers,

Greg

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It really depends on what you are brewing. Think of brewing like cooking, which it closely parallels. You can make a cheeseburger with ground turkey instead of ground beef and it will still be a burger but the two will not taste the same. Re Vienna I assume you are talking about German Vienna malt as opposed to North American Vienna malt. All the malts you mentioned are produced from different types of barley. Domestic (US/Canada) 2-row, UK 2-row (specifically Maris-Otter, there are lots of others and all are pretty good) and German 2-row (which can be malted and kilned into pilsner, Vienna or Munich malt). Everybody has their opinion and mine is that the European malts have better flavor. Chew a few barleycorns of UK pale and then follow it with some North American pale to illustrate the difference. I would definitely suggest the use of UK malts for UK beer styles and the same goes for German/Continental malts and beers. Subbing and mixing & matching is up to you but before doing that I suggest brewing some traditional styles with the appropriate malts so will know what they taste like in the beer.

This link comes in handy from time to time with grain descriptions .

Maris Otter is grainier, breadier...Vienna is cleaner but gives a bold malt presence.

Best way I can describe it off the top of my head. Marris Otter has a character I really can't describe.

Maris Otter is better for english or american style beers...ESB, IPA, etc. Vienna is good for german styles...malty lagers, hefeweizens, etc. and can make a very interesting (and different) Pale Ale.

I use Vienna in a ton of my recipes. Maris Otter is reserved just for my english style beers. This is one of my favorite beers...

Vienna Pale Ale:

10 lbs Vienna Malt mashed at 152°F
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 60 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 20 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 5 minutes
1 Pack of Nottingham dry yeast

DeathBrewer said:

Vienna Pale Ale:

10 lbs Vienna Malt mashed at 152°F
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 60 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 20 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 5 minutes
1 Pack of Nottingham dry yeast

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Death speaks.... and I think I am going to brew this... got a MO recipe for a good character comparison? Maybe I will get some.

Maris Otter + Fuggle would make an awesome Single Malt And Single Hop brew. Nottingham yeast would work there, too.

Thanks for the input folks. The main reason for the inquiry was because I am almost out of 2-row (I bought 2 25kg bags a while back) and will need to buy more base malt soon. I am contemplating buying 2 different base malts but cost is certainly a factor. Obviously living on the canadian prairies, the canadian 2-row can be had for relatively cheap. But the other base malts (Vienna and MO) are more expensive and as such I'm wondering if its worth it to have a whole 25 kg bag on hand. I think my best course of action will be to do a couple of SMaSH beers with each malt to get a feel for them relative to the 2-row and then decide from there.

Cheers,

Greg

DeathBrewer said:

Maris Otter + Fuggle would make an awesome Single Malt And Single Hop brew. Nottingham yeast would work there, too.

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Death,
I'm thinking of doing a MO smash. I was planning to use Saaz. Will the Saaz work well with the MO, or should I use something else?

Is there a commercial ale that's just/mostly Vienna? I am trying to pin down a really interesting flavor I keep getting in various beers and it might be Vienna (which I haven't used before).

When I have a traditional German lager, like a Flensburger, I get a flavor that tastes (to me anyway) a bit like honey. I thought it was Honey Malt maybe, but now I'm not so sure. Can this be from the Vienna?

I've just used MO for the first time, earlier I have always used regular British pale. I must say after only tasting a few grains (beer is still fermenting) that the difference in aroma is huge. The MO has much more aroma than a regular British pale and a heck of a lot more than American pale. It's breadier and also has that particular aroma I have often found in good English bitters, but haven't been able to recreate until now. I know it sounds weird, but I find that aroma to be somewhat earthy - almost a bit mushroom-ish...

Haven't got any experience with Vienna, though.

ghpeel said:

Is there a commercial ale that's just/mostly Vienna? I am trying to pin down a really interesting flavor I keep getting in various beers and it might be Vienna (which I haven't used before).

When I have a traditional German lager, like a Flensburger, I get a flavor that tastes (to me anyway) a bit like honey. I thought it was Honey Malt maybe, but now I'm not so sure. Can this be from the Vienna?

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Honey Malt adds a definite "honey sweetness"...vienna is more of a "malty sweetness", but it's possible that's what you're describing.

Vienna Lager would be the best style...some of them are made with 100% vienna. The most widely available would probably be Negro Modelo, a Vienna-style lager from Mexico.

I use Vienna in MOST of my recipes...it has a wonderful flavor.

Making the Vienna/Northern Brewer Smash this week.

DeathBrewer said:

Maris Otter is grainier, breadier...Vienna is cleaner but gives a bold malt presence.

Best way I can describe it off the top of my head. Marris Otter has a character I really can't describe.

Maris Otter is better for english or american style beers...ESB, IPA, etc. Vienna is good for german styles...malty lagers, hefeweizens, etc. and can make a very interesting (and different) Pale Ale.

I use Vienna in a ton of my recipes. Maris Otter is reserved just for my english style beers. This is one of my favorite beers...

Vienna Pale Ale:

10 lbs Vienna Malt mashed at 152°F
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 60 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 20 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 5 minutes
1 Pack of Nottingham dry yeast

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Sorry if I'm just not seing it, but are you using pelet or whole hops here?

Thanks in advance!

gregdech said:

Thanks for the input folks. The main reason for the inquiry was because I am almost out of 2-row (I bought 2 25kg bags a while back) and will need to buy more base malt soon. I am contemplating buying 2 different base malts but cost is certainly a factor. Obviously living on the canadian prairies, the canadian 2-row can be had for relatively cheap. But the other base malts (Vienna and MO) are more expensive and as such I'm wondering if its worth it to have a whole 25 kg bag on hand. I think my best course of action will be to do a couple of SMaSH beers with each malt to get a feel for them relative to the 2-row and then decide from there.

Cheers,

Greg

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Hey Greg,
Nice to see another Edmontonian on board. I tend to use Maris Otter a fair bit. I like the flavour more than Canadian 2-row. It's a bit more roasty, full, bready.... Last week, a friend and I drove to Didsbury to Canada Malting and picked up 330lbs of grain: One sack each of Maris Otter, Canadian 2-Row, Franco-Belgian Pilsen, Wheat Malt, Light Crystal, Chocolate Malt. Overall it worked out to $0.68 per pound. Woo hoo!

Are you a member of the EHG? If not, the first meeting is on Sept 7, at Alley Kat.

Mike

I think I'll be doing the Vienna / Northern Brewer Smash next. Looks very tasty.

ghpeel said:

I think I'll be doing the Vienna / Northern Brewer Smash next. Looks very tasty.

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I did a Munich NB SMaSH a couple weeks ago. Turned out really good. I had it up a Hoggetown for a couple of days. If I remember I'll take it up there Sunday when I work.

Mine is in the secondary now. Crash cool and bottle next week some time. Very clear and very tasty.

Hugh_Jass_Gnome said:

Death,
I'm thinking of doing a MO smash. I was planning to use Saaz. Will the Saaz work well with the MO, or should I use something else?

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MO + fuggles or EKG's is basically an English bitter. I put a .5lb crystal 60 in there to, but for the most part Bitter is a smash. Same with a pilsner (pils + german/czech hop of choice).

Bottled the Vienna/Northern Brewer SMASH today. It tasted awesome. I can hardly wait for the 3 weeks to carb......

What does everyone think if possibly making a rye IPA from vienna base?

It'll work great, just remember it will have a big malt backbone, so add plenty of hops!

Ok will do! I am thinking of picking up the stuff next week... the swmbo goes back home for a couple of weeks

DeathBrewer said:

Maris Otter is grainier, breadier...Vienna is cleaner but gives a bold malt presence.

Best way I can describe it off the top of my head. Marris Otter has a character I really can't describe.

Maris Otter is better for english or american style beers...ESB, IPA, etc. Vienna is good for german styles...malty lagers, hefeweizens, etc. and can make a very interesting (and different) Pale Ale.

I use Vienna in a ton of my recipes. Maris Otter is reserved just for my english style beers. This is one of my favorite beers...

Vienna Pale Ale:

10 lbs Vienna Malt mashed at 152°F
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 60 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 20 minutes
1 oz Northern Brewer (8%AA) @ 5 minutes
1 Pack of Nottingham dry yeast

Click to expand...

What is the flavour like without the use of crystal malt?

jdooley said:

What is the flavour like without the use of crystal malt?

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I just drank the first bottle of this that I brewed a month ago...it is fantastic. Kind of reminds me of dogfishhead 60 min but less hoppy and a little less malty. definitely has a good, strong, malty aftertaste. It would be good with some crystal in it I think, but it is also great without any crystal

Just about to dough in, brewing the vienna smash...

Turned out pretty good, somewhat one-dimensional, but a nice, dry, quencher. And look how clear this thing is. This is purely irish moss and solid yeast flocculation. I turned the bottle up-side-down when I poured. The Nottingham sediment sticks like cement to the bottle!

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