Struggling with efficiency -- Need Help

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Brak23

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Hey guys,

I brewed yesterday and ran into a low efficiency again and feeling a bit frustrated that im so off from my numbers. It doesn't seem like the beer matters, but anytime im aiming at 1.070, I end up getting maybe 1.055 for my OG. So yesterday I took exact measurements of everything and I think the problem is my mash tun.

Here are some general notes about what I did, and I am hoping people can tell me where the most important change in my process or equipment is:

- For starters, ive recently started using a 45 QT mash tun from home depot, its rectangular with a dimension of 23" W x 14" D x 18" H

- Because of the above, worried about depth of grain bed. I wasn't able to measure the depth yesterday, but I had about 12 pounds of grain in a 23 x 14 area.

- My starting mash temperature ended up at 147 degrees once grain was added (my 168 degree water ended up there after grain addition). Took about 10 minutes, but got more hot water in and ended up right about 154 degrees.

- I did not stir or check the mash temp for an hour (I know this is an area that I probably need to start doing -- Not sure how often to check temp)

- Because of the temperature difference, I ended up adding significantly more water to the starting mash than the original calculating (4 gallons, ended up closer to 5 in the mash)

- I batched sparged 4 gallons of water, and tried to get it over all the grain, but given the area of grain, I doubt I was consistent

- When I pulled the liquid out of the mash tun, I completely opened the value. I believe I was pulling close to 1 gallon every 30-40 seconds. Been reading this may be WAY too fast and not allow the grain to do its thing.


I believe I have identified a bunch of areas to improve, but I am more curious from the group if there is one thing specifically I may be doing (in the above) that is really impacting my ability for efficiency. Ive only done all-grain about 4 times now, and I never feel like I have been able to hit my numbers. More so recently in the last two where I have the new mash tun. But not sure what the big impactor is to my efficiency.
 
Crush and efficiency are closely related, too coarse will negatively impact your extraction. So check there first. The crush from most LHBS is too coarse.

Did you drain the mash tun completely before you sparged? That's essential.
After adding the sparge water, you do need to stir the mash up well, let sit for a few minutes, vorlauf, then lauter (drain) completely.

There are literally 100s of threads on this topic here, all with pretty much the same answers.
 
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12 pounds of grain, how much crystal malt in that. And i find i get better efficiency if i split my sparge into 2 equal sparges. 10-10.5 of base malt usually gets me in the 1.056 range.
 
Hey guys,

I brewed yesterday and ran into a low efficiency again and feeling a bit frustrated that im so off from my numbers. It doesn't seem like the beer matters, but anytime im aiming at 1.070, I end up getting maybe 1.055 for my OG. So yesterday I took exact measurements of everything and I think the problem is my mash tun.

What is your filter? A manifold or a braid?

Here are some general notes about what I did, and I am hoping people can tell me where the most important change in my process or equipment is:

- For starters, ive recently started using a 45 QT mash tun from home depot, its rectangular with a dimension of 23" W x 14" D x 18" H

- Because of the above, worried about depth of grain bed. I wasn't able to measure the depth yesterday, but I had about 12 pounds of grain in a 23 x 14 area.

I use a 52qt Coleman with a CPVC manifold in the bottom, very similar in size. Grain depth is mostly immaterial unless you fly sparge.

- My starting mash temperature ended up at 147 degrees once grain was added (my 168 degree water ended up there after grain addition). Took about 10 minutes, but got more hot water in and ended up right about 154 degrees.

Did you preheat your mash tun?

Even with preheating, add 4-6 degrees to your calculated mash-in temp, since no calculator compensates for the 3-5 minutes it takes to stir the grain into the water while the lid is off, which gives you a huge heat loss. 4-6 degrees works for my cooler with 10-14# grain at 1.5 quarts per pound. After stirring the mash temp is spot on or a degree high. Easy to knock that down, stir a little longer.

Then lay a piece of aluminum foil over the mash and close the lid.

I use brew365's mash calculator.

- I did not stir or check the mash temp for an hour (I know this is an area that I probably need to start doing -- Not sure how often to check temp)

Stirring during the mash should not be needed. You could after 30 minutes, but you'll lose a few degrees at the same time.

- Because of the temperature difference, I ended up adding significantly more water to the starting mash than the original calculating (4 gallons, ended up closer to 5 in the mash)

12# of grain with 4 gallons of water is a 1.33 ratio. Use 1.5, a bit thinner and easier to stir/mix. The more water the higher the heat capacity of the mash system, the fewer degrees you'll lose.

With the 5 gallons you ended up using, you were a bit over 1.5 so that's no problem. You can go as high as 2:1 or even 3:1, but you won't have much or any sparge water left. I don't like the mash too thin, hence 1.5-1.66 is my preference.

- I batched sparged 4 gallons of water, and tried to get it over all the grain, but given the area of grain, I doubt I was consistent

You're batch sparging, no need to pour carefully:
After draining your mash tun (first runnings) add half your sparge all at once, stir well, let sit for a few minutes to settle, vorlauf and drain (lauter) completely, those are your 2nd runnings. Repeat for collecting your 3rd runnings.

- When I pulled the liquid out of the mash tun, I completely opened the value. I believe I was pulling close to 1 gallon every 30-40 seconds. Been reading this may be WAY too fast and not allow the grain to do its thing.

After vorlaufing at, say, half open and putting the grainy half gallon to a gallon wort back into the cooler, you can open the valve all the way. The wort should be fairly clear by then.

I believe I have identified a bunch of areas to improve, but I am more curious from the group if there is one thing specifically I may be doing (in the above) that is really impacting my ability for efficiency. Ive only done all-grain about 4 times now, and I never feel like I have been able to hit my numbers. More so recently in the last two where I have the new mash tun. But not sure what the big impactor is to my efficiency.

It takes a few times to get it all working right. Read around on how other people do it and apply what fits your workflow. It gets better.

As I said before, crush is probably the most important factor for efficiency. But there are others, like water minerals, pH, DP, etc.
 
What is your filter? A manifold or a braid?



I use a 52qt Coleman with a CPVC manifold in the bottom, very similar in size. Grain depth is mostly immaterial unless you fly sparge.



Did you preheat your mash tun?

Even with preheating, add 4-6 degrees to your calculated mash-in temp, since no calculator compensates for the 3-5 minutes it takes to stir the grain into the water while the lid is off, which gives you a huge heat loss. 4-6 degrees works for my cooler with 10-14# grain at 1.5 quarts per pound. After stirring the mash temp is spot on or a degree high. Easy to knock that down, stir a little longer.

Then lay a piece of aluminum foil over the mash and close the lid.

I use brew365's mash calculator.



Stirring during the mash should not be needed. You could after 30 minutes, but you'll lose a few degrees at the same time.



12# of grain with 4 gallons of water is a 1.33 ratio. Use 1.5, a bit thinner and easier to stir/mix. The more water the higher the heat capacity of the mash system, the fewer degrees you'll lose.

With the 5 gallons you ended up using, you were a bit over 1.5 so that's no problem. You can go as high as 2:1 or even 3:1, but you won't have much or any sparge water left. I don't like the mash too thin, hence 1.5-1.66 is my preference.



You're batch sparging, no need to pour carefully:
After draining your mash tun (first runnings) add half your sparge all at once, stir well, let sit for a few minutes to settle, vorlauf and drain (lauter) completely, those are your 2nd runnings. Repeat for collecting your 3rd runnings.



After vorlaufing at, say, half open and putting the grainy half gallon to a gallon wort back into the cooler, you can open the valve all the way. The wort should be fairly clear by then.



It takes a few times to get it all working right. Read around on how other people do it and apply what fits your workflow. It gets better.

As I said before, crush is probably the most important factor for efficiency. But there are others, like water minerals, pH, DP, etc.


Thank you! I appreciate the detailed response. Its hard to not want to judge every part of what I am doing as wrong, so I appreciate the perspective.
 
It's hard to brew "wrong" just might not be efficient or as effective as it could be otherwise :)

There are a few things you can do and not end up with beer in the end.
 
I used to be all over the place OG wise when I was ordering grain crushed. Once I bought my own mill, things changed dramatically. Thats where I would look first. Good luck!
 
Aso don't overlook the mash out. If you are batch sparging and are keeping the pH in the 5.2 -5.6 range then you can go over 170* a little without tannin extraction and getting all those sugars out. Make sure after adding your sparge liquor the tun is at 170*.
 
Aso don't overlook the mash out. If you are batch sparging and are keeping the pH in the 5.2 -5.6 range then you can go over 170* a little without tannin extraction and getting all those sugars out. Make sure after adding your sparge liquor the tun is at 170*.
Mash out won't improve efficiency, unless conversion was incomplete before the mash out. It that case the mash out just provides some additional mash time at a higher temperature, which temporarily turbo charges the conversion rate until the enzymes are denatured. Better to just extend the mash time (or even better use a finer crush) to get more complete conversion.

Brew on :mug:
 
I used to be all over the place OG wise when I was ordering grain crushed. Once I bought my own mill, things changed dramatically. Thats where I would look first. Good luck!

Gotta agree with this. After buying the mill and setting the gap to 0.85mm (avg. credit card thickness), my numbers have been VERY consistent through about 10 batches.
 
I get the sense, given the way you described your sparging step, that you aren't sparging appropriately to extract the sugars in the grain.

Don't worry about getting water all over the grain as you are pouring, just make sure you are stirring vigorously for 2 minutes once the sparge water is added.
 
...

- Because of the temperature difference, I ended up adding significantly more water to the starting mash than the original calculating (4 gallons, ended up closer to 5 in the mash)

- I batched sparged 4 gallons of water, and tried to get it over all the grain, but given the area of grain, I doubt I was consistent

- When I pulled the liquid out of the mash tun, I completely opened the value. I believe I was pulling close to 1 gallon every 30-40 seconds. Been reading this may be WAY too fast and not allow the grain to do its thing.

...

You don't mention running off wort (draining the mash tun) prior to adding the sparge water. Did you drain before you added your "sparge" water or not? If you didn't drain, then you just did a no-sparge process, which will cost you about 8% - 10% efficiency.

Proper batch sparge process is as follows:
  1. At the completion of the mash, stir well to get an even concentration of sugar throughout the mash,
  2. Vorlauf (manually recirculate wort) until the runnings contain no grain bits,
  3. Drain the mash tun into the boil kettle. Drain as fast as your system allows,
  4. Add sparge water to mash tun, and stir aggressively for a few minutes,
  5. Vorlauf as above,
  6. Drain the mash tun into the boil kettle. Drain as fast as your system allows.
Brew on :mug:
 
Others are probably right that your grain crush is to blame. You can't really control it until you get your own mill and dial in the gap. You should also get a spray bottle of water and take a couple of minutes to condition your grain. It can make a huge difference in the crush.

I always add my water to the empty mash tun, then take the temp. If it matches the mash-in temp Beersmith told me, I'm probably good. Otherwise, I will drain a gallon or so back into my kettle and heat it enough to close the gap and return it to the tun. This addresses any unexpected heat loss due to a cold mashtun or to the transfer tubing. Once that's correct, I add my grain and generally hit my temp right on.

I add my grain to the water a few pounds at a time and make sure its well stirred in with no dough balls before adding more. I usually try to overshoot my mash temp by a degree or 2 so that I don't have to stress about losing too much heat while getting a good stir on the grains. Raising the mash temp by 1 degree is a lot more hassle than lowering it if you're using a cooler mashtun.

I give a second stir at the halfway point and a third with 10 minutes left in the mash, maybe 15-30 seconds of stirring each time. I doubt I would get better efficiency by stirring more. When I collect first runnings, I don't rip the valve wide open right away, I do vorlauf slowly and collect the first quart or 2 of runnings slowly before I open the valve wide, to make sure the grain bed is set.

With the sparge, I just dump in the water and stir for a minute. Doesn't matter how I distribute it because I stir after. I shoot for a sparge volume the matches the volume of my first runnings per Denny's advice. Then I let it sit for maybe 5 minutes for the grain bed to settle. Then I do the same drain procedure as with first runnings.
 
I use a rectangular cooler with a bazooka tube ($15 at the local brewshop, $10 online) after my home made SS braid collapsed. Did an Oatmeal Stout yesterday with 80% eff.
 
The things you list as "wrong" don't seem like they would make a big difference. If you are off by the same amount every time, that tells me you have a nice consistent process. This may not answer your question, but the other way to approach it is to adjust your grain bill/recipe to hit your numbers. The only downside is a few extra dollars worth of grain.
 
If you are worried about grain bed depth...and I doubt it's an issue...you can just mash thinner. It won't hurt efficiency. You didn't mention your exact grain bill and left out most of your volumes. If I am putting 7 gallons in the kettle then I am sparging with 3.5 gallons and mashing with whatever gets me 3.5 gallons after absorption. For a normal sized beer like this with 12LB of grain that means around 5 gallons of water in the mash and a ratio of nearly 2 qt/lb of grain.

How much beer went into the fermenter, and how much was left in the pot? I assume this was not a 5 gallon batch, because at 70% efficiency you're going to get somewhere around1.055 out of 12lb of grain, not 1.070. And most folks are happy with 70% efficiency.
 
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