Goose Island 312 Clone Discussion

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Boerderij_Kabouter

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My brother-in-law Paul, a good Bavarian descended brewing assistant:

paul_brewing.jpg


wants to brew a light American wheat for his in-laws (my outlaws) family Christmas. We decided they would like something like Goose Island 312. I spoke recently with Goose Island's Wisconsin Rep, and he was going to get back to me about some specifics, but we are brewing on Sunday and can no longer wait...

Here is what I have so far...

1) ABV 4.2%
2) SRM 4
3) IBU 15
4) They use a healthy portion of torrified wheat but I don't know exact ratios
5) The hops are American Cascade

They use a house yeast and I don't have time to drive to Chicago, so I picked up Wyeast 1056 (Am ale) and 2565 (Koelsch). I ferment 5g with each (I do 10g batches). Each yeast will be prepared in a 2 qt. starter.

I was thinking:

25/25/50 torrified/wheat malt/2-row
do a three step mash schedule 99/122/145
60 minute boil
1 thirty minute hop addition to get me to 12 IBU
1 5 minute hop addition for 3 IBU

My questions are:
1) What do you think about my portion of torrified/wheat malt?
2) What do you think about my mash schedule?
3) What do you think about my hop schedule?
4) Any other suggestions you can think of?

Thanks:mug:

EDIT: Here is the current recipe from this thread. I will update as the discussion continues and more batches are brewed:

312 v3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Light Hybrid Beer
Subcategory: American Wheat or Rye Beer
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 10 gal.
Volume Boiled: 11 gal.
Mash Efficiency: 78 %
Total Grain/Extract: 15.00 lbs.
Total Hops: 2.8 oz.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 160.8
Cost to Brew: $38.63 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $0.36 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.0 lbs. German 2-row Pils
4.2 lbs. Belgian Wheat Malt
2 lbs. Belgian Munich
0.3 lbs. Acidulated Malt
3.5 lbs. Torrified Wheat

2 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 33 minutes.
0.75 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 1 minutes.
Yeast: WYeast 1056 American Ale

Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.041
Terminal Gravity: 1.009
Color: 3.62 SRM
Bitterness: 15.0 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 4.2 %
 
Reading the website doesn't make it sound like they use wheat malt at all. I like the hop schedule, but it's a light citrus aroma, so something around .5 oz or less maybe?

Goose Island said:
Like the digits suggest, it's a beer that's densely populated with flavor and loaded with character. We don't filter it, so none of its life and soul is stripped away.

The first thing you notice is the hazy, cloudy appearance. That's how you know it's unfiltered. What hits you next is the spicy aroma of Cascade hops, followed by the crispy, fruity ale flavor delivered in a smooth, creamy body, the result of blending barley malt with torrified wheat. It's not like any other Goose Island Beer, but no less than you'd expect.

(subscribed)
 
Reading the website doesn't make it sound like they use wheat malt at all. I like the hop schedule, but it's a light citrus aroma, so something around .5 oz or less maybe?

I know, I can't tell if they use all torrified... can you even do that? 50% torrified? I've never pushed that far.

I agree, small flavor/aroma hop addition, good call. I really hope this turns out. Not my kind of winter beer, but next summer this could be great.
 
I know, I can't tell if they use all torrified... can you even do that? 50% torrified? I've never pushed that far.

BeerSmith has a Max in Batch property of 40% for Torrified Wheat so that's all I know. I've never used torrified wheat, my american wheat is 50/50 2row/wheat malt.

I've read that torrified can be an one/one replacement for wheat malt, but from nowhere I'd put real stock in it.

Anyone know the straight dope on this? Bob?
 
Here's my first round thought:

1) 5lb 30% 2-row
2) 5lb 30% wheat malt
3) 5lb 30% torrified wheat
4) 1.75lb 10% Munich (for a little color)
(OG: 1.042, FG: 1.009, 4.3 ABV, 3.92 SRM)

a) 11.0 AAU Cascade at 30 minutes
b) 4.125 AAU Cascade at 1 minute
(15.2 IBU)

What do you think of that? Someone has to have some experience with this.....

Thanks
 
Is that too much wheat for an Am. wheat? Normally they are 50/50 2-row/wheat so I am a bit concerned this will not be what I am looking for.

Maybe 70/30 2row/torrified?

I found a six pack of 312 and a 6er of Bell's Oberon on the way home from work yesterday. Comparing the two against style 6D, American Wheat or Rye, in which Oberon is, according to the BJCP style guide, the best example of the style and 312 doesn't even show up was an eye opener. Against the Oberon, 312 came across as a cloudy blond ale. Little of what I could call a "wheat" flavor when compared to the Oberon.

Goose Island 312 is one of my wife's favorite beers and we've had a few cases of it pass through the bar, but it was surprising when drinking it with a "real" American Wheat per BJCP style.

Totally changed what I thought the beer might be made up of. It might even be more 80/20.
 
I would think that they would use a different yeast than those. I would think that they would ferment in the upper 60's with 3056. I would even try WB06 for this recipe. I've heard that it has wheat yeast flavors that are muted.

As for the grain bill, don't forget the rice hulls with that much wheat.
 
I would think that they would use a different yeast than those. I would think that they would ferment in the upper 60's with 3056. I would even try WB06 for this recipe. I've heard that it has wheat yeast flavors that are muted.

As for the grain bill, don't forget the rice hulls with that much wheat.

Big thing with American Wheat is that it doesn't have the traditional "weizen" flavors.

BJCP 6D Style said:
... Esters can be moderate to none, but should not take on a German Weizen character (banana). No clove phenols, although a light spiciness from wheat or rye is acceptable ...

If picking a something other than cal ale, Wyeast has 1010 American Wheat but even they say 1010 can be used with styles like Cream Ale, Düsseldorf Altbier, Kölsch, and Northern German Altbier. All styles that have very minimal to no yeast ester notes.
 
Slimer - I really don't think either of those yeasts would get close to the 312 flavor profile, 312 (and most Am wheats) do not have the Bavarianesq yeast flavors that those yeasts produce in abundance.

MMB- really? Maybe that's the way it is.... 70/30??? no wheat.... I am at a loss for what to do.... Any other input would be great. I don't know enough about torrified wheat's flavor to know what that would taste like. 312 has that slightly sour taste that I think comes from the citrus of the Cascades and maybe from the T. wheat???

I still haven't heard back from Goose Island. This needs to be a lighter example for the crowd who will be drinking it. The recipe above is fully at the lower end of everything within the Am. wheat guidelines.
 
MMB- really? Maybe that's the way it is.... 70/30??? no wheat.... I am at a loss for what to do.... Any other input would be great. I don't know enough about torrified wheat's flavor to know what that would taste like. 312 has that slightly sour taste that I think comes from the citrus of the Cascades and maybe from the T. wheat???

I still haven't heard back from Goose Island. This needs to be a lighter example for the crowd who will be drinking it. The recipe above is fully at the lower end of everything within the Am. wheat guidelines.

Have you considered just scaling down a standard 50/50 American Wheat to the OG/IBU range that 312 comes in at? Might not be a 312 clone, but still should be very good.

I'd recommend getting a few 312 and the Oberon and doing a comparison. It's really surprising.
 
Well, the torrified is supposed to provide a bit of wheat tang and a bunch of proteins for a cloudy appearance. That might be what your picking up in the 312. I didn't pickup a sour note but I do pickup a little bit of "bite" in the finish. Maybe that's what your picking up as sour. Different palettes and all that rot.

I'm going to have to get some torrified and try adding it to the SMaSH blond ale I do for a house beer. Nice and easy drinking wheat beer that's cheap to brew. :D
 
How about this:

312 v2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Light Hybrid Beer
Subcategory: American Wheat or Rye Beer
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 10 gal.
Volume Boiled: 11 gal.
Mash Efficiency: 78 %
Total Grain/Extract: 15.50 lbs.
Total Hops: 2.8 oz.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 164.8
Cost to Brew: $39.38 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $0.37 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.00 lbs. German 2-row Pils
2 lbs. Belgian Wheat Malt
2.5 lbs. Belgian Munich
5 lbs. Torrified Wheat
2 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 33 minutes.
0.75 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 1 minutes.
Yeast: WYeast 1056 American Ale

Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.042
Terminal Gravity: 1.009
Color: 3.90 SRM
Bitterness: 15.0 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 4.3 %


This recipe is over half base malt (38/16 2-row/munich) and mostly T. wheat for the wheat aspect.
 
Well, the torrified is supposed to provide a bit of wheat tang and a bunch of proteins for a cloudy appearance. That might be what your picking up in the 312. I didn't pickup a sour note but I do pickup a little bit of "bite" in the finish. Maybe that's what your picking up as sour. Different palettes and all that rot.

I'm going to have to get some torrified and try adding it to the SMaSH blond ale I do for a house beer. Nice and easy drinking wheat beer that's cheap to brew. :D

Yeah, the "bite" or tang is what I was talking about. The smash blonde with torriefied wheat sounds good.
 
Seriously, I need some help with this. Thank you much MMB for all your input! I would like some other outside opinions though. I spoke with my LHBS owner and he doesn't have a good feel for what the 312 should be so he did not have much advice.

I know there are a lot of experienced peeps here, so help me out... I am begging... sad really ;)
 
Wow. Great discussion!

Let me state at the outset that I wouldn't know this 312 stuff if a sixtel painted itself purple and started dancing on a grand piano singing, "American Wheat Beers Are Here Again". ;)

But torrefied wheat, I can give some input. Torrefied wheat is unmalted wheat corn that's been cooked under pressure with steam until it pops like popcorn. Lots of breakfast cereals contain torrefied grains.

Torrefied wheat has a slightly nutty character; it is often used in lieu of raw wheat in Belgian-style Witbier and for lacing and foam retention in low-gravity English ales. It really shouldn't have much of a flavor impact at all, even in the quantities stated in your recipe. But it has comparatively high proteins, so it will cloud it up in quantities much over 10% of the grist.

Have fun milling it. Not so difficult as raw wheat, but might require resetting your mill gap.

I wish I could offer more input than that, guys!

Bob
 
So last night I had a good discussion with one of the brewers from Sand Creek Brewery (a Wisconsin Micro) and he had some good input. He suggested lowering the Torrified wheat percentage to around 20% and replacing it with regular wheat. He said while the torrified wheat does have a slight tang to it, it has a rather forward toasted note when used in large quantities that would not match well with the style.

He also suggested to add about 2% of acidulated malt to add a bite onto the finish and said he has had great success using this method. Other than that he though the recipe looked great. I will update my recipe and post back.

If anyone has further ideas or comments I would love to hear them! :mug:
 
Here is my current recipe:

312 v3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Light Hybrid Beer
Subcategory: American Wheat or Rye Beer
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 10 gal.
Volume Boiled: 11 gal.
Mash Efficiency: 78 %
Total Grain/Extract: 15.00 lbs.
Total Hops: 2.8 oz.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 160.8
Cost to Brew: $38.63 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $0.36 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.0 lbs. German 2-row Pils
4.2 lbs. Belgian Wheat Malt
2 lbs. Belgian Munich
0.3 lbs. Acidulated Malt
3.5 lbs. Torrified Wheat

2 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 33 minutes.
0.75 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 1 minutes.
Yeast: WYeast 1056 American Ale

Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.041
Terminal Gravity: 1.009
Color: 3.62 SRM
Bitterness: 15.0 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 4.2 %


--------------------------------------

This one is a bit lighter but I think the malt bill looks better.

Now for my shameful beg.... I haven't purchased BeerSmith yet but really liked having the brew sheet for my brewday. Would someone be willing to input this and send me the brew log? Please......:eek:
 
Well I brewed this up yesterday and all went well. That torrified wheat is some sticky stuff! I had to use twice as many rice hulls as I normally do with wheat beers to get it to flow nicely. 10g's are bubbling happily
 
Well.... I think it is going to be awesome.

My BIL took his 5g of the batch fermented with the Kölsch yeast because that one showed the most promise early. Then I put my 5g keg in my keezer to start sipping the next day....

When I found it the next day, a leaking post had deposited all my beer in the bottom of my keezer, it was a sad day. That was last weekend and I haven't had the time or heart to go clean it up yet.

I will see my BIL in a week or so and I will report how it turned out.
 
Interesting recipe. I like the idea of cascade in a wheat beer. Yet another beer to add to my growing brew list.
 
I have updated the first post to include the recipe I brewed. For reference, I have not yet tasted the carbed beer, but my initial tasting note was that I would reduce the flavor/aroma hop addition to maybe 0.50 oz. or even 0.25 oz.

If others brew something similar please post here so we can get this closer.

Thanks all!
 
I got to taste this beer last night! Likely the only two pint of it I will get because it is being served at my BIL inlaws Christmas party... bummer. At least I got to sample it.

So... this beer was truly unique. I have never had anything like it, in a good way. It was not like a 312 Urban Wheat as planned.

First, the beer pours with the most incredible billowing blight white head I have ever seen, we're talking Duvel kind of foam! The beer is a VERY pale turbid yellow. Truly a beautiful beer and exactly the look I was going for. The head looked like a stiff meringue or ice cream mixed with whipped cream, I can't decide. Just great!

The aroma was interesting with the cascade hops showing through a bit but the majority of the smell was from the wheat.

The taste was where things got interesting. The start was nice a crisp feeling with a very filling a creamy texture. Then the wheat REALLY shown through! I mean, it was the most interesting wheat, toast, cream, malt flavor I have ever had. I really don't know how to explain it. The weight of the beer stayed very light through this complex taste in the meddle and finished nice and dry without leaving a noticeable aftertaste. I wish I had a better explanation of the taste but I am at a loss for words (which surprises even me).

In conclusion, this beer produced the results we were aiming for, albeit through a slightly different taste profile. We wanted a very drinkable beer that would be agreeable with a lighter beer drinking crowd that would still cater to the more adventurous drinkers. I think we really accomplished that with a truly original style of beer. It does not fit any of the existing guidelines for taste, but is a great beer none-the-less.

While this beer did not meet the original goal of cloning 312, it did teach me more about torrified wheat and American wheat beers in general. It is really to bad that I lost the 5g's that were fermented with the 1056 yeast, I would have liked the comparison.... oh well.

..............

For future batches, to get closer to the 312, I think I would decrease the amount of wheat and up the 2-row percentage. I don't know exactly to what, but 312 definitely does not have the complexity and wheaty character of this beer.

The hops were perfect! I would not change anything about that. After tasting the hydrometer sample I thought I would maybe want to drop some of the flame-out addition, but after tasting the finished beer, I would leave it the same.

The Koelsch yeast was great but was not accurate for the 312. Maybe I will try Wyeast 1010 (american wheat) next time.

I hope someone else will try and brew a 312 clone and post here to help the group!

Cheers!

p.s.- I didn't have my camera so I don't have any pictures of this beer which is unfortunate.... I apologize :mug:
 
Thanks for the update. Wish you could post a picture of how this looks. I can almost taste what you are describing and will probably brew this next spring or summer even though I've never had the commercial version to compare it to. While probably not the norm, I love a strong wheaty, floury taste in a wheat beer. Thanks for sharing.
 
Well I tinkered for a bit tonight trying to get my busted keg working.... to no avail :(

Only one gentlemanly thing to do... drink it all! I have about 2 liters worth to polish my skills with tonight.

Sorry the pictures are terrible, I had to use my computers camera.

Photo_19.jpg


Photo_20.jpg


Photo_21.jpg
 
Two Maß and that Weiß glass and I was in the bag last night..... lol still kickin today and actually very focused!

Polished it off and have my corny free to find a fix.
 
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