Mash Mixer that heats!

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WortMonger

"Whatcha doin' in my waters?"
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I have been toying with the idea of moving into the electric route on my mash tun and have read several threads and articles on the likes. I am still not ready to put my mash directly on a heater element that will do nothing but get gunked-over over time. However, I was headed in this direction if I couldn't find anything better and was planning on building a mash stirrer and just "knowing" I was going to be replacing water heating elements when they looked the least bit grungy (cause thats just how I roll, lol). Since I "need" a mash stirrer to get the temperature stable anyway, I thought to myself, "Why not use rigid copper tubing, and standard copper fittings to make the mixer? Why not solder copper paddles to the framework and why not drop a element down inside the now finished mash stirrer and control it with a Ranco ETC and a PWM circuit ran to a SSR to control the temp?" After asking these questions and wanting to know more about something I know nothing about I start this thread to hopefully learn more and get an idea or three.

First off, control I don't think is a problem. I am more worried about what kind of element to use. I know I can't use the standard water heater element because it would be heating air inside the copper tubing and most aren't happy with a dry firing, not to mention the tubing would have to be large diameter 1" or more. I started thinking about a cartridge heater like Mcmaster-Carr carries or similar. I would think this would be the best bet for this style of application, but I don't know. Here's where you guys and those huge brains come in. My design for the mixer leaves me with a hollow rigid tubing coming out of the top of a mash tun lid I will make directly in the center. I am putting the lid opening just off center and cutting it so when open it will miss the gear I plan on attaching to the end of the copper tube. I figure with a motor even more offset of center and it being chain driven around the stirrer gear this will give me a little more lid room than attaching everything right on top of the copper tube shaft. Well since I have a open tube, why not drop in a heating element (cartridge type- small diameter 1/2" or less and as long as I need one 6-10") and kill two birds with one stone. At first the idea sounded like a lot of parts. I wasn't thinking about how the element wouldn't need a turntable connection since it is so much smaller than the copper tubing I would use for the stirrer shaft, and how it would just spin inside giving off its heat. I have no idea what wattage heater I would need, or if I would have to get one with protected leads etc to get me from the element to the top of the stirrer shaft, or if there is a better idea out there I haven't heard yet. My thinking was the all-copper construction of the mixer would be great for heat transfer from the element and I am not worried about scorching after hearing everyone that uses elements in direct contact of their mash tun's contents. So.... after saying all of this, I really hope this becomes a long thread of great ideas. I just think the simplicity of the system after everything is built would be great having everything in the lid. Rev up and spit me some knowledge people.:rockin:

I love to brew, and like the hands on of hot water step infusion or single infusion, but man what I wouldn't give for a "Ronco, set it and forget it" mash tun, lol.:tank:
 
I have no idea what kind or how many hp the stirrer motor would have to be either. I would like the entire "unit" lid-controller and electronics-motor to all be on one plug to the wall socket. 110VAC preferably to keep it simple.

Again, any ideas are more than welcome because I need to raise this idea or diffuse it.:rockin:
 
:mug: Hey, I figured maybe a picture of what I have proposed can get some constructive criticism. The only things missing from the picture are the Ranco 111000 and its temperature probe,as well as, the motor for turning the stirrer(Ideas PLEASE on the motor. Everything on this would be sealed with a good soldering job on all joints and bent tubing ends.
m_574f306b1f490df752d4861c1eff0acc.jpg


I hope this gets some people excited to talk about this, I am hoping to become a gold member here next month or so if all the threads i keep reading are so great and new. Thanks guys, just need a little reassurance/guidence in this matter.

Hope the picture loads ok, like I said I am new to this-not brewing!:mug:
 
I'm willing to bet this will do the trick: Motor & Gearbox

70 rpm, but you'd want to offset the motor to the side and use a larger drive gear anyway.

[Maybe it's my display, but I can't read anything on your picture except the "monster mash".]
 
Stupid picture was too small guys, sorry. I am trying to find a way to get it full size but don't have any webpage to post it fullsize on.

Thanks for the info on the motor and gearbox I will check it out.:ban:
 
Interesting idea. A lot if people scrounge a windshield wiper motor when the need a slower RPM, but I am not sure if they would have the torque you need.

I’m not sure how much heat would transfer with the air gap between your element and the copper. Consider having your center shaft been a large diameter tube (at least 2”) and just suspend the heater inside. You could then fill it with water to transfer heat. It would be really neat if you could get the hot water to circulate thru the paddles also. Maybe the paddles could connect at the bottom of the big shaft and loop up to the top. They could be flattened as long as the fluid path wasn’t cut off. I think the rising hot water in the center would draw water thru the paddles.
 
how much mash are you using in this future contraption?
And wassamatta with a stnls. kettle with perf false bottom/ spigot/ and stirring spoon?
I brew 18# grain for a double batch in such a thing.
Watch the oil/grease in any mechanism doesnt thin and fall into yr wert else you wont get a head.
 
It is awesome that so many have a say. I thought about water/glycol/other circulating but that seems a little more complicated a manufacture. The idea that got me started for what I want to build is the 1500W water heater element directly touching the mash and a separate stirrer powered of course. I think it is CD Pritchard who has the most common page on this. I wanted to really get more protective of my mash (even though I wasn't scared after reading Pritchard’s comments on the products his system produce) and also have all the electronics and probes and moving parts to be in an easy to remove lid. I like the clean construction of a keg top as a tun bottom and figured this would be the easiest (for me). I am curious though if everyone thinks the same about mine being a bit more buffered from the element than Pritchard's, and that "just air" will be sufficient to heat the paddle. This element says up to 800F and it is like 2000W, I was thinking the copper would heat up fast, and cool down fast(water scared me about making steam inside the paddle and overshooting rest). Basically, what if you put a copper "cover" over Pritchard's and ran with it.

I mashed 25# last time and that took a lot of stirring, not to mention the heat loss while the lid was off and me mixing away trying to get the dang thermometer to read what I wanted it to.

I bought a garage door opener motor off the recommended site that will get me going in a circular manner, lol. Glad it is already geared at the end of the shaft, now I just find out what size I want on my stirrer (the mash mixer to come!).

Thanks for the ideas though, and hope to hear more.:rockin:

Here's to you guys, I am definitely becoming a member next paycheck, you guys rock.
 
that link doesnt work on the motor / gearbox but 70 RPM sounds reallly fast, thats 1 turn a second... i would maybe think 6rpm would be plenty, 1 turn every 10 seconds. Just me..

I would maybe build this from a drill motor and a few belt pulleys. a cheap drill running 1500Rpm sent through 2 belt pulley setups @ 10:1 ratio would get you 15rpm, then a 2:1 would get you 7.5 rpm's..

You could find a high torque motor and do less gearing but high torque motors are kinda $$$ if i remember.

If i'm thinking of what your wanting to do though, put a heating element inside the stirer, then i think your bigger issue is finding a gearing that will fit the size pipe you require to fit the element. Copper also isnt the strongest metal out there and theres the possiblity of catastrophic failure of the stirrer esp when its being warmed. stainless may be a wiser choice for strength.

BTW check out this mixer!
 
That is too funny. That Bukin link is what got me started on this idea, as well as Pritchard's.

Stainless is expensive so I was willing to chance this part of the project up to well soldered copper rigid tubing and fittings. I read an article about a guy that built a mash stirrer the same way he just didn't heat it or the tun (wish I could find that article again, like a couple of years back). I also wanted the better heat transfer properties of the copper (who knows, when all is said and done with the copper I might be able to run the element on 100% with the pulse width modulator without scorching anything, but I am planning on 50-75%).

As far as the gear on the top of the tube, I will let my machine shop friend have a look at how we should gear down this motor I bought and some of the other "make it work" kinds of things. He is the one that suggested I just drop in a element down a hollow tube and turn its OD with a gear. My first design had turntable connections and elements in every paddle, it was very over-ambitious and I couldn't think how to simplify. Basically his idea is to have the tubing end outside the lid with a male NPT threaded fitting, that way we can simply find the "right" gear for the speed (we will experiment with) and screw it on. I agree that a slower speed would be wanted, I was thinking just fast enough to not hot-side aerate. Lol, uh oh, test batch of possible swill in the future. How long is that first mash rest going to last with all that "trying things" going on?

You guys are really causing me to double think some things, and I really do appreciate having to reprove the "possibilities" to myself. I really just needed a challenging project, and I have found one. You guys are great and please keep the constructive criticism coming. I will definitely photo document this thing from start to finish. Now I just need to learn how to get the dang pictures on here, lol.:drunk:
 
A lot of people are suggesting using an electric ice cream maker motor. They are low rpm, and have enough torgue to crank frozen ice cream.
 
I have built a few radio controlled air planes in the past and the RC world has allot of planetary geared motors that are well made small and have a ton of torque to drive the prop what in essence is an air screw. I would look into 1/4 scale glider stuff for a test motor. Yes this stuff is expensive but like they say,
education is expensive and pioneers have allot of arrows in their back. Hopfully not enough to kill the idea. That can happen too. Hopfully I have helped. There are a ton of RC sites you can visit to get the motor you may want to try. many of those small motors are hand wound and that is why the expense is there.


G,
 
Thanks for the motor info, but that cut into my idea of automation w/o the heavy cost. My motor arrived yesterday and it should be easy enough to find or make a gear that will work on the worm screw that is on its drive shaft. My friends machine shop is loaded with nylon for hydraulics and his dad mentioned nylon would be perfect for the job with no lube necessary. The motor delivered was only $20ish and stepping it down with gears from 1650 rpm to turning the paddle shaft of 30-60rpm. It requires extra wiring for using it as a gear motor but they actually included this wiring diagram for doing so. Thanks by the way to the one that led me to that science supply site, or maybe I should shout in anger at you for the endless ideas for more projects that came from viewing the site.:) Talk about not getting sleep and things wizzing around in your brain. You guys are great though, and the little hobby motor(though expensive) may play into someone elses ideas and work for them. Thanks and lets keep more ideas coming. I am ordering my element this weekend from Mcmaster-Carr unless I can find a cheaper supplier, so hopefully next week I will start this project. Can't wait to become a memeber so I can post the pics from this project.:rockin:
 
I posted this one yesterday. I use it for my HLT though....

STIR MOTOR

I don't see how you will be able to heat up to 170 degrees with such a small element.

Since the wort needs to be recirculated anyways why not just go with a HERMS or RIMS to adjust the temp of the mash. It will be much simpler to set up.
 
I think steam would definately be the way to go if you don't want a HERMS or RIMS. An electric element in the stirrer would not be efficient.
 
Brewman was working on a steam set up. I'm not sure if he's busy.
I don't think I've heard of him after the sparging thread.

I'd love to go for one of these funky set ups. I love gadgets but I just can't get away from my KISS system that is low cost.

It brews beer how I like it.
 
Gary was also telling me that he pulls the steam unit out when it's time to sparge.

I run the pump to recirculate the wort after removing the SIMM, just long enough to clear the wort and set the grain bed. Then I turn the pump off and open the valve to run the wort out to the brew kettle. When the wort level drops down to about an inch above the grain bed I open another valve to begin sparging.

I really like Brewman's setup for the steam generation in the Corny. It's a toss up the method of making the steam, I like the simplicity of the pressure cooker, but I like the automation of the Corny generator.
 
Steam injection into the mash sure looks like the hard way to get step mashing done, should try steam injection to recirculated wort. Same setup can be used to heat strike water instead of needing HLT for strike water heating.
 
I decided on steam injection from the manifold in the bottom of my mashtun. I went with a braided hose and copper, and went ahead with the mash stirrer just copper tubing connected to icecream machine motor. Pretty simplistic to my first aspirations but I like it better, and it is no extra holes or anything out of my round cooler. I think I will save my pump for clearing wort and tranfer to kettle. Simple stirring after steam injection stays at the right temp and no heat loss on a hour rest at 150. I just take it up to 168 and then start dropping into my grant/pump and back over the grain until clear and then into the kettle. I batch sparge so I won't elaborate on the rest. I always wanted a rims or herms system until I have seen steam. Now I don't see the need for recirculation heating, I meen with a mash stirrer and a steam supply. I also had never done a mash out before steam injection. All I can say is that it beats the hell out of my old system and has made it a lot easier, and that is what it is al about to me. Thanks for your input though, it has made me think more.
 
orfy said:
Brewman was working on a steam set up. I'm not sure if he's busy.
I don't think I've heard of him after the sparging thread.

I've been around. Look at my thread history. I didn't realize you guys were talking about me.
 
kladue said:
Steam injection into the mash sure looks like the hard way to get step mashing done...

You are kidding right ? 1 pressure vessel + 1 valve + 1 piece of hose, maybe a manifold if you want to get fancy.

Operation is equally complex.

if mashTemp.tooCold()
{
steamvalve.Open();
System.out.println("STIR THE MASH, DUMMY !");
}

if mashTemp.justRight()
steamvalve.Close();

Just make sure you stir a bit. No pumps, no circulation, no scorching, no oxidation. Just let it sit.

Did you read about how fast Yuri boosted the temp of his 10 gallon mash ?
 
I'm happy to hear you found it useful. I'm just giving back to the community that helped me.

I had another one of my cranberry ales last night at dinner. The first beer I ever steam mashed. Its a great beer !
 
I made a brewery as a wedding gift and it turned out wonderful, so then I made a bigger one for me. Steam is the best, safe <- if you know how to use a pressure cooker safely. Yuri, and the rest of you guys really set an excellent exchange of ideas and proof against doing certain things. Very helpfull, it has bettered my brewery.
 

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