1554 Clone attempt..

I dug through several threads and compiled a recipe that I think I'll start with.

Problem I'v run into is the recipe calls out Weyermann Munich II, and gives it 8.5 srm..
I can't find this anywhere...
I can only find Weyermann CaraMunich II, and it's 40-50srm..

I went ahead and got the caramunich II, but I also grabbed an equal amount of thier light munich, as it's 8-9, thinking substitution...
Am I heading the right direction here or no...??

The recipe I followed gives a color of 35, and with the CaraMunich II, brewmasters recipator gave me 41.. not huge....

Here's what I ended up with..

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 1555
Brewer: Brad
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Specialty Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.39 gal
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 40.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 60.19 %
1 lbs 14.1 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 16.17 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 12.90 %
12.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6.45 %
8.0 oz De-Bittered Black (550.0 SRM) Grain 4.30 %
0.75 oz Magnum [14.00 %] (25 min) Hops 23.2 IBU


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 11.63 lb
----------------------------
Mash 154* for 45, then mashout @ 168* for 10.

From tasting impressions of the 1554 I'd reduce the chocolate malt, and add in a dark crystal along the lines of 120L. I'm not sure how much, but it definitely felt like it had the characteristic dark crystal flavors.

Caramunich is the not the same as Munich. If your recipe that you want to follow had a 8 SRM Munich, use the light Munich you bought. That said, I don't think that crystal malts are out of place here, I'd use a smaller quantity of the caramunich (pound or under) and some 120L (can't give you an estimate on quantity).

Did you read This TBN thread about it? One guy got a response e-mail from NB where they gave some good tips:

interesting - I just got my response from the brewery - here it is: (from Matt G. - very cool person)

Hello Andy,

I am glad to hear you like 1554 so much. I'm not going to give you style guidelines because I think they're a bunch of hooey.

Malt: The basic idea is to brew a big beer, relatively high gravity with a lot of unfermentable content to keep the body high and the alcohol moderate. Some 2-row, but a lot of Munich, Caramel, and Carapils malts. Use chocolate and black malt extremely sparingly, a little bit goes a long way for color. If there were a black malt that had no bittering effect, that would probably be the one to use.

Hops: Bitterness is moderate to high, enough to offset all that extra sweetness. Water is kept soft to keep the bitterness quite mellow. There is no aroma hop in 1554. If anything, you could put in some kind of spice at flavor threshold.

Yeast: Lager yeast, ale temperatures. Particular strain doesn't matter, as long as it is a low sulfur producer.

Finishing wise, this beer is straightforward.

Hope this helps, good luck and happy brewing.

Click to expand...

So it seems he is saying use only debittered Black or dehusked Carafa and only as much as is required to get the color. I agree with phasedweasel on everything said. There is a spice addition at the end but I don't know what it is and it's hardly detectable anyway imo (I've only had it a few times). I think Magnum is a good choice. Also looks like low sulphate water.

Oh yea, Weyermann Munich Type II (9ish *L) is about the same as most other maltster's Light Munich. Their Munich Type I (6ish *L) is lighter than most Light Munich malts. So you got the right stuff with that Lt. Munich.

Wow.. 12oz of Chocolate is way too much. I would definitely cut that down.

I'd imagine that you can get a lot of that color just from using straight Munich. Maybe a few oz of chocolate.. but thats it. Maybe some Special B?

Reading that I'd say use a mix of crystals for sure: 10 (CaraPils), something intermediate, and maybe a blend of 80 and a 120 / Special B. Be careful not to overdo a combination of 80 and dark, it can be overpowering, but they are definite contributions.

Also, I think Rogue Pacman yeast or notty would be a great yeast for this.....mash at 149-150 and ferment long and cool.

Basically just go find a good Schwartzbier recipe......black beer.

I think a pilsen base, with minimal crystal malt and enough black patent and chocolate to color it and you will be fine. It is supposed to be light bodied like a pilsener, just dark colored. I think the slight spice note comes from special B.

I wonder if some debittered dark malt would be nice?

I bet you would get close with this:

10# pilsen
4 oz special B
4 oz black patent
4 oz chocolate - or dehusked dark malt maybe?

permo said:

Also, I think Rogue Pacman yeast or notty would be a great yeast for this.....mash at 149-150 and ferment long and cool.

Basically just go find a good Schwartzbier recipe......black beer.

I think a pilsen base, with minimal crystal malt and enough black patent and chocolate to color it and you will be fine. It is supposed to be light bodied like a pilsener, just dark colored. I think the slight spice note comes from special B.

I wonder if some debittered dark malt would be nice?

I bet you would get close with this:

10# pilsen
4 oz special B
4 oz black patent
4 oz chocolate - or dehusked dark malt maybe?

Click to expand...

Read what the brewer said in that e-mail response I posted above. He says; "The basic idea is to brew a big beer, relatively high gravity with a lot of unfermentable content to keep the body high and the alcohol moderate."

In that thread linked there was another e-mail response where the brewer said no aroma/flavor hops but there is a late spice addition at the taste threshold.

Pacman and Notty are both good and clean but might tend to over-attenuate. I think they would work as long as you account for that.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Read what the brewer said in that e-mail response I posted above. He says; "The basic idea is to brew a big beer, relatively high gravity with a lot of unfermentable content to keep the body high and the alcohol moderate."

In that thread linked there was another e-mail response where the brewer said no aroma/flavor hops but there is a late spice addition at the taste threshold.

Pacman and Notty are both good and clean but might tend to over-attenuate. I think they would work as long as you account for that.

Click to expand...

Wow I should have read that. So it really isn't a Schwartzbier then. So maybe mash high, ferment cool and hope for 1.015 to 1.018 FG? Maybe 1.060 OG? Something like that.

I have found that if I mash at 155 with a 1.060 brew, notty will take it too just below 1.020 if fermented cool.

I just don't get a lot of body when I have a glass of 1554, it seems light bodied and smoky tasting to me.

I've only had it a few times, once was on-tap at the brewery during the tour. I agree it doesn't really taste full-bodied, maybe medium-bodied. But keep in mind they use a lager yeast (same yeast as Blue Paddle) and ferment it warm (for lagers) so that's gonna make it attenuate more. Now that I just wrote that...I'm thinking you were spot-on with the Notty/Pacman recommendation...and fermented cool.

SpanishCastleAle said:

I've only had it a few times, once was on-tap at the brewery during the tour. I agree it doesn't really taste full-bodied, maybe medium-bodied. But keep in mind they use a lager yeast (same yeast as Blue Paddle) and ferment it warm (for lagers) so that's gonna make it attenuate more. Now that I just wrote that...I'm thinking you were spot-on with the Notty/Pacman recommendation...and fermented cool.

Click to expand...

I think if a guy just got a good schartzbier recipe and used pacman or notty on a cool fermentation you would get close.

What do you suppose they use for spice addition?


I also have tinkered with the idea of making a "black kolsch" with WLP029. Same exact protocol as a standard kolsch, pilsen base with debittered black and little chocolate. This might also be something to consider if you like 1554.

permo said:

I think if a guy just got a good schartzbier recipe and used pacman or notty on a cool fermentation you would get close.

Click to expand...

I disagree, I think there's a lot of crystal malts in there, especially 120 and maybe 80, and that's supported by the response from New Belgium ("lots of caramel malts and carapils"). I also think you get a bit of yeast character, which again is supported by New Belgium's response that they use a lager yeast at warmer temps.

Wow, lots of replies...

To start, I did read that TBN thread, and about 11-teen others on the subject.

I also found a thread (I'll find again if I can today andpost here) detailing an email from the brew guy at NB stating (verbatim) "I can't just give you the recipe, but I can give you the ingredients;

1554: 5.5%
Hops and Spices: Magnum
Malts: Pale, Carapils, Black, Munich, Chocolate "

So that's where I started, then I found several recipes that had various amounts of these and others, and went from there.
Many mentioned Grains of Paradise, and I have that coming but forgot to add it to the Beersmith recipe. I got 2 grams.. :rockin:

I don't see the need to add a crystal, or a black or change a whole bunch of other things like the yeast.. Pacman maybe what it needs, but I don't know that yet.
I know the head brewer says they use lager yeast at higher temps. To me, that's not the same thing as using ale yeast at lower temps...
I've got a WPL830 (I think, the german lager variety) coming for it.

I'll drop back the chocolate as I was think it was a bit much as well. But then it's test batch #1. Plus I'll get the benefit of learning to wash the yeast for the next 8 test batches..

One important question, relating to the "higher temps"... What should I consider higher temps for the lager yeast?

I can get down to 62-66 in the basemant, or keep it upstairs and get 65-75 depending, or put it in the garage and get 52-58....

Many other attempts I read had guys shooting for the 60's, but not many of them ever came back with an update..
I'm leaning toward the 62-66 range myself...

Regarding that lager yeast and temps; allegedly the WLP830 strain is the Weihenstephan 34/70 strain and that is allegedly Wyeast #2124. On the Wyeast site it says the following regarding that yeast (note the pseudo-ale thing and the low sulphur, very important):

A Carlsberg type yeast and most widely used lager strain in the world. Produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. Will ferment in the 45-55°F range for various beer styles. Benefits from diacetyl rest at 58°F (14°C) for 24 hours after fermentation is complete. Also used for pseudo-ale production with fermentations at 65-72°F, (18-22°C) which eliminates sulfur production.

Click to expand...

I'm curious how the diacetyl would be at those temps and how one would do a D-rest since you're already at D-rest temps.

Good post... Thanks for that info..

As to the question, I have no idea.. hahaha..

I may end up with some undrinkable crap..

<on edit>

I don't know about the rest (this is my first go round with a recipe.) but here's a quote from the TBN post..

"We use our lager yeast in 1554, the same one that we use for Blue Paddle. The main difference is in a 1554 ferment the temperature is significantly warmer. This reduces the sulphur compound formation and increases the aroma ester production slightly to give it a Belgian-y flavor without the overpowering ester character that our Abbey ale yeast produces.
The real secret to 1554 is this: we don't use any kind of flavor or aroma hop in 1554, only bittering hops. We do add a spice at the end of boil, however."

So it seems the sulfur side is panning out good...

More D-rest research is in my future...

Here's an email I just received from Wyeast:


Brad,

Honestly, 2124 usually doesn't produce beers with diacetyl problems. If
using 2124 at 60, perform a d-rest at 60 for 2-3 days. This is really
only necessary of you are kidding the beer and immediately cooling right
after terminal gravity is reached. If you are bottle conditioning, the
d-rest can happen in the bottle.

Please let me know if you have other questions.


Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories

After reading this and several other threads, here is what I came up with and brewed yesterday. I'll let you know how mine turns out in about 4 weeks.


Type: All Grain
Date: 9/21/2011
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Brewer: Ben Bradford
Boil Size: 7.07 gal Asst Brewer: Me
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: 6 Gallon Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6 lbs 3.7 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 48.41 %
2 lbs 1.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 16.04 %
2 lbs 0.5 oz Caramel Malt - 10L (Briess) (10.0 SRM) Grain 15.77 %
2 lbs 0.5 oz Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 15.77 %
4.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.01 %
4.1 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 1.99 %
0.53 oz Magnum [15.20 %] (60 min) Hops 23.6 IBU
0.25 oz Black Pepper (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.25 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.03 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.48 %
Bitterness: 23.6 IBU Calories: 240 cal/pint
Est Color: 21.1 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 12.87 lb
Sparge Water: 1.73 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 3.99 gal of water at 167.0 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 2.89 gal of water at 190.4 F 168.0 F



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).

Can't wait to hear how this one comes out! I've been watching these 1554 threads for some time now....

Thanks for jumping in there to take a crack at it, brave soul!

I'm not on my computer, but I believe that there is an official New Belgium recipe that was in BYO. I have it on my laptop.

benbradford- how did your 1554 clone turn out? What did you think of the rather large percentage of crystal and cara malts? I'm thinking of brewing up something very close to your recipe.

I'd also like to know how it turned out! Wake up!

I can't speak for benbradford's recipe, but it looks far to complicated from my own research. I am up to about revision 7 on this brew and think I have it dialed in nicely.
The bottled version of 1554 sucks and doesn't taste anything like the draft beer. So far, everyone who tastes mine thinks I have a NB keg in the cooler. I can't complain.

BTW, mine turned out not good

What is the recipe per the 7th revision?

What about star anise at the whirlpool stage? If I remember I got a little licorice out of it.

Ridemywideglide said:

I can't speak for benbradford's recipe, but it looks far to complicated from my own research. I am up to about revision 7 on this brew and think I have it dialed in nicely.
The bottled version of 1554 sucks and doesn't taste anything like the draft beer. So far, everyone who tastes mine thinks I have a NB keg in the cooler. I can't complain.

Click to expand...

Would love to get your 7th revision! I have a request for a wedding next summer so I would like to get it dial in before that.

Ridemywideglide said:

I can't speak for benbradford's recipe, but it looks far to complicated from my own research. I am up to about revision 7 on this brew and think I have it dialed in nicely.
The bottled version of 1554 sucks and doesn't taste anything like the draft beer. So far, everyone who tastes mine thinks I have a NB keg in the cooler. I can't complain.

Click to expand...

Care to share? Trying to clone this as a wedding present.

My apologies for being MIA for so long..

For those still interested..

7lb8oz Brewers Malt 2-Row
1lb14oz Munich II
1lb8oz Cara-Pils
10oz Chocolate
2g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5 min)
.25oz Target (Boil 10 min)
.75 oz Target (Boil 60 min)
WLP830

I'll be back to brewing again soon, and have a batch of this waiting to be brewed. Could use some more tweaking with the hops, and possibly a different yeast.

Ridemywideglide said:

My apologies for being MIA for so long..

For those still interested..

7lb8oz Brewers Malt 2-Row
1lb14oz Munich II
1lb8oz Cara-Pils
10oz Chocolate
2g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5 min)
.25oz Target (Boil 10 min)
.75 oz Target (Boil 60 min)
WLP830

I'll be back to brewing again soon, and have a batch of this waiting to be brewed. Could use some more tweaking with the hops, and possibly a different yeast.

Click to expand...

This looks interesting. Based on the recommendation to ferment using a lager yeast at aleish temperatures, what do you guys think about using the San Francisco lager strain?
Also here’s the new Belgium page which states which malts and hops are used. There is no mention of using spices and personally I’ve never detected that in the bottled version. I think any peppery character is probably from a combination of the grain bill and yeast used.