Let's talk belgian!

So I'm gearing up to brew my spring beer, which I'm thinking will be a Belgian along the lines of a strong golden or a tripel. I can't really find a clearly defined difference between the two styles, nor does it bother me much, because Duvel and Chimay White are both excellent beers (I also LOVED Damnation from Russian River). Plus it seems to me that their recipes are most likely very similar, with the yeast and fermentation parameters being the primary differences.

Anyhow, I'm finding the selection of Belgian strains on White Labs page to be a bit overwhelming. I've narrowed it down (I think) to either 500, 530, or 510. It's interesting because the reviews for 510 make it sound fantastic, but apparently it originated from Orval which I found to be by far my least favorite of all the Belgians I've tried. Fusol alcohols way overwhelmed the rest of the beer. That might be their style though, and not just a guaranteed result from that yeast.

Thoughts?

If you want to talk about competition guidelines, it's really nicely spelled out at the BJCP site: http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style18.php#1c
But before you say anything, yes, they're very similar styles. The most important quote from that selection is:

"[A Golden Strong Ale] Strongly resembles a Tripel, but may be even paler, lighter-bodied and even crisper and drier. The drier finish and lighter body also serves to make the assertive hopping and spiciness more prominent."

GSA covers a WIDER range of gravity, so typically more alcohol (higher OG AND lower FG), both use similar ingredients and a fair portion of sugar, but the GSA will be more assertively spicy and hoppy, while the Tripel will be more delicate and champagne like. The GSA is always lighter in color, as well.

Another great way would be to taste the differences! The quintessential Tripel is Chimay White, and the quintessential GSA is Duvel.

As for yeasts, you're really probably looking more at WLP500 (from the Chimay brewery) and WLP570 (From Duvel). Have you see this chart: http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/BelgianYeastStrains.pdf ?

Here is a great resource for different yeasts. I lists the yeasts and which brewers use them. It covers both White Labs and Wyeast.

http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm

daksin is right, the two he recommended seem to fit what you are looking for.

Use JP Oro De Calabaza dregs and make a sour BSGA, forget the White Labs =P

Duh, you're both right. I meant to type WLP500, WLP530, and WLP570 but for some reason I typed 510 on that last one. So basically it's the two that you both suggested, but plus 530 because I think it's got promise.

Beergolf- that's a page I've had bookmarked for quite some time, and I read it very thoroughly before making this thread

Daskin - I've had them both, loved them both. It's like choosing a favorite child or asking if you'd rather go on a date with Salma Hayek or Catherine Zeta Jones. Different flavors, both are oh so wonderful.

Honestly though, I couldn't really pinpoint the differences to the styles as much as the breweries and the yeasts.

BudzAndSudz said:

Honestly though, I couldn't really pinpoint the differences to the styles as much as the breweries and the yeasts.

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That makes sense. Take a look at Michael Jackson's description of Duvel. There is something about Duvel that makes it different from other beers. Other breweries have attempted to capture that quality, and those beers get grouped together as "Belgian Golden Strong." So while you may not get credit for this answer on a BJCP test, if someone asked you to describe the difference between a Belgian Golden Strong and a Tripel, it might be accurate to say, "A Belgian Golden Strong should taste more like Duvel than Chimay White."

HerbieHowells said:

That makes sense. Take a look at Michael Jackson's description of Duvel. There is something about Duvel that makes it different from other beers. Other breweries have attempted to capture that quality, and those beers get grouped together as "Belgian Golden Strong." So while you may not get credit for this answer on a BJCP test, if someone asked you to describe the difference between a Belgian Golden Strong and a Tripel, it might be accurate to say, "A Belgian Golden Strong should taste more like Duvel than Chimay White."

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A very good point. This is definitely one of the blurriest lines in all of BJCP.

I find trippel's to have more banana characteristics, while BSGA's tend to be a little more citrusy. The fruitiness is there in both, but I find that of a Trippel to be less harsh. Both are fantastic styles, and I'm not sure those descriptors are used in the BJCP guidelines, but who really cares about those guidelines (rhetorical)?

If you're curious, do a split batch to try different yeasts. It's what I'm doing this weekend; brewing a Tripel and splitting into 3 fermenters, and pitching WLP530, WLP545 and WLP570. Only difference will be the yeast, so a good chance to taste the difference.

MattHollingsworth said:

If you're curious, do a split batch to try different yeasts. It's what I'm doing this weekend; brewing a Tripel and splitting into 3 fermenters, and pitching WLP530, WLP545 and WLP570. Only difference will be the yeast, so a good chance to taste the difference.

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Unfortunately, I really dislike that method, although I have done it in the past. I enjoy experiencing exactly what the yeasts can contribute to an ale, but I immensely dislike finding out which one is my favorite, and then wishing I had 10 more gallons of that, instead of two sub-par batches with the inferior yeast. I just did it with my Oktoberfest, and I was left with 10 gallons of excellent beer, and 5 gallons of beer that I wish was excellent. :/

JordanThomas said:

I find trippel's to have more banana characteristics, while BSGA's tend to be a little more citrusy. The fruitiness is there in both, but I find that of a Trippel to be less harsh.

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For me, I find the Tripel to be more orange/clove/perfumy and the BGSA to be more pear/pepper/perfumy.

I like WLP500 for a Tripel and WLP570 for a BGSA. Speaking of, I need to make a Tripel here soon...

I see you've got a BGSA fermenting as well as drinking. Would you mind posting the recipe? And I suppose if you wouldn't mind, I'd be curious to see what recipe you'd use for a Tripel as well, just to juxtapose the differences there.

I've found the Chimay strain to be a little spicier than the Duval strain. For my Belgian strongs I enjoy 570.

BudzAndSudz said:

Unfortunately, I really dislike that method, although I have done it in the past. I enjoy experiencing exactly what the yeasts can contribute to an ale, but I immensely dislike finding out which one is my favorite, and then wishing I had 10 more gallons of that, instead of two sub-par batches with the inferior yeast. I just did it with my Oktoberfest, and I was left with 10 gallons of excellent beer, and 5 gallons of beer that I wish was excellent. :/

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As you were, then. I like seeing the differences and then selecting the best one for the next beer.

Although I suppose it might be worth a try here, since both Trippels and Golden Strongs are right up my alley, I suppose I'm much less likely to not enjoy one of the outcomes. My Oktoberfest experiment was 10 gallons with Lager yeast and 5 gallons with an Ale yeast. What I was left with was a weird, fruity, almost amber-ale that just tastes plain weird. At least with a belgian recipe where most of the flavor is from the yeast as opposed to the grain bill I guess I'd be less likely to see a weird outcome.

BudzAndSudz said:

Although I suppose it might be worth a try here, since both Trippels and Golden Strongs are right up my alley, I suppose I'm much less likely to not enjoy one of the outcomes. My Oktoberfest experiment was 10 gallons with Lager yeast and 5 gallons with an Ale yeast. What I was left with was a weird, fruity, almost amber-ale that just tastes plain weird. At least with a belgian recipe where most of the flavor is from the yeast as opposed to the grain bill I guess I'd be less likely to see a weird outcome.

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Yeah, I can see that. The yeasts I'm using this weekend are derived from Duvel, Westmalle and an unknown source in Ardennes (not Chouffe, it seems). I wanted to compare Duvel and Westmalle as I love Duvel and Westmalle's tripel and threw in the third yeast just for the hell of it.

With Belgian yeasts, I haven't really encountered one that I haven't liked. Some are better for certain purposes, but even then, sometimes they can be a surprise in another style.

That said, you're doing larger volumes than I am. I do 24 liters and split to 8 liters for each, around 22-24 bottles of 33 cl for each. Enough to sample and test the beer. I don't do this all the time, just doing it with some stuff lately. Took my existing amber ale that I've brewed a lot and did a batch with 1187, 1968 and 1469 just recently. Haven't tasted yet, but curious to see the differences with those. All of them should be great for an amber.

Yeah. Also if these didn't have a mandatory maturation time of a solid 3 months or so to really achieve the proper flavor I'd be more inclined. I wonder if it would be worth making a cheap extract version about 3 gallons in size to test out all the different flavors, drink it young, and then decide. That could work, but I suppose extract might not fully capture the flavor, since it'll contribute to the taste so differently than actual grains. I'm also really interested in WLP550. Sounds like a great option too.... Hmmmm

I just used WY3522, same Achouffe source as 550, along with 3711 in a split batch Belgian IPA. Loved them both. 3711 ferments out totally, went down to .998, but still tastes awesome. 3522 ended at 1.009. Anyway, they're both lovely. Just bottled the beer, so will take more notes once it's conditioned.

WLP545 is also from Ardennes, but I have no idea what brewery it's from.

I have a backlog of beers already, so don't mind waiting out the conditioning. I have more than I can keep up with. And lots of mead as well. Good in case of zombie apocalypse. ;-)

BudzAndSudz said:

I see you've got a BGSA fermenting as well as drinking. Would you mind posting the recipe? And I suppose if you wouldn't mind, I'd be curious to see what recipe you'd use for a Tripel as well, just to juxtapose the differences there.

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From memory (so it may be a bit off):

BGSA:
10 lb Belgian Pils
2.75 lb Cane Sugar
mash @ 151
83% eff.
3 oz. Czech Saaz @ 60
WLP570
ferment as follows:
64 start, ramp to 80 over 10 days. leave at 80 until FG is reached. cold condition for 3 weeks at 48 on cake. bottle.

Tripel (made this a long time ago):
11 lb Belgian Pils
2 lb Cane Sugar
mash @ 153*
70% eff
2 oz Czech Saaz @ 60
0.5 oz Saaz @ FO
WY1214 (or WLP500)
added a bit of coriander & orange peel at FO
ferment the same as above.

YMMV, but I hope that helps. Basically, the tripel is not as dry (FG 1.012 in my case compared to BGSA FG of 1.006) and the BGSA has a higher hopping rate. Personally, I like the BGSA better. But then again, I don't like cloves that much.

BudzAndSudz said:

Yeah. Also if these didn't have a mandatory maturation time of a solid 3 months or so to really achieve the proper flavor I'd be more inclined. I wonder if it would be worth making a cheap extract version about 3 gallons in size to test out all the different flavors, drink it young, and then decide. That could work, but I suppose extract might not fully capture the flavor, since it'll contribute to the taste so differently than actual grains. I'm also really interested in WLP550. Sounds like a great option too.... Hmmmm

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Cheap extract? That's a bit of an oxymoron to me. Admittedly, I'm a newer brewer but after two extract batches, I made the move to BIAB AG just because grains are much cheaper than extract for getting gravity points. I'd say make a three gallon BIAB version test batch, bottle them all in 750s, and drink one once a week until gone to see how it develops and if you think it has potential for a full batch size.

BudzAndSudz said:

Unfortunately, I really dislike that method, although I have done it in the past. I enjoy experiencing exactly what the yeasts can contribute to an ale, but I immensely dislike finding out which one is my favorite, and then wishing I had 10 more gallons of that, instead of two sub-par batches with the inferior yeast. I just did it with my Oktoberfest, and I was left with 10 gallons of excellent beer, and 5 gallons of beer that I wish was excellent. :/

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It's better than 15 gallons of beer that you wish was excellent. Unless you try the various yeasts, how're you to know which you prefer?

Alright, alright, you win!

went to the store last night and picked up some Styrian Goldings, Saaz and a vial of WLP530, WLP550, and WLP570. I'm going to try and track down a vial of WLP500 as well, but my LHBS didn't have it, I'll have to go check out a different one. My plan is to make a 5 gallon test batch and split it into 1-gallon batches to test which yeast I like better. Then, which ever one wins, I basically just made a 1-gallon starter for the big show so I'm ready to go on the 10 or 15 gallon batch!

I'm going to just make a super simple recipe for the test, 12 lbs of 2-row pale (it's not authentic, but I have it on hand leftover from my last bag, so might as well use it), and 2 lbs of turbinado sugar. Should get me in the ballpark where tasting the yeast will be easy, and from there I can decide if I want to go Tripel or BGSA depending on which yeast I like the most.

I'm about to pitch WLP530, 545 and 570 into my BGSA/Tripel hybrid...

Be sure you can maintain a low temp for all those vessels. I like to keep them in the low to mid 60s for most of the primary fermentation and raise the temp as the yeasties start slowing. This will hold back unwanted fussels these yeasts will produce at higher temps.

Raising the temp at the end will actually be the challenge. I have a 7.1cuft chest freezer with a Johnson controller for early fermentation, but raising it at the end... it's November in Colorado out here, my house is almost never even warmer than 70. I might have to use my aquarium heater in a big tub with the carboys partially submerged in water. Everything I've read is to pitch at about 65, then raise it to about 85 fairly linearly over about 5 days. Sound reasonable? I definitely don't want fusel alcohols in there, it's a very Unappealing flavor. I almost poured out a bottle of Orval last week because the solvent flavor was so strong.

I have a two stage Ranco. For heating, I use a hair dryer to heat the chest freezer. Works great. I just use the hair dryer on low. It turns on and off as needed. Been using that system for three years now and works like a charm. When I'm only using one demijohn (like a carboy), I use one of those heat belts. But a hair dryer works well to control the temp in the fermentation chamber, which is useful for these multiple fermenter situations.

BudzAndSudz said:

Raising the temp at the end will actually be the challenge. I have a 7.1cuft chest freezer with a Johnson controller for early fermentation, but raising it at the end... it's November in Colorado out here, my house is almost never even warmer than 70. I might have to use my aquarium heater in a big tub with the carboys partially submerged in water. Everything I've read is to pitch at about 65, then raise it to about 85 fairly linearly over about 5 days. Sound reasonable? I definitely don't want fusel alcohols in there, it's a very Unappealing flavor. I almost poured out a bottle of Orval last week because the solvent flavor was so strong.

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I ended up with a second STC-1000 that I use on the fermentor in the freezer. It connects to a FermWrap on the fermentor and I use it to ramp the temperature up without having to warm the entire ferm chamber. I use about 18" of FermWrap (~60 watts). A brew belt won't do it inside a cold chamber.

This will work as well. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/fermentation-chamber-heater-cheap-289120/

Hmmm... I don't really want to spend another $60 on a second temp controller to run the heater. Any ideas that don't involve a second controller? I wonder about just using a space heater with a built in thermostat....

BudzAndSudz said:

I wonder about just using a space heater with a built in thermostat....

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I've heard most of these have temp overrides and switch off when they get too hot. You have to unplug them to reset the cut-off switch. I'd also be concerned with temp accuracy.

BudzAndSudz said:

Hmmm... I don't really want to spend another $60 on a second temp controller to run the heater. Any ideas that don't involve a second controller? I wonder about just using a space heater with a built in thermostat....

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You shouldn't need another one. I don't know your unit, but you should be able to use it for heating or cooling. Maybe not with yours?

Can't you just unplug the freezer and plug in the hair dryer, for instance, and set the temp to where you want it to turn on?

MattHollingsworth said:

You shouldn't need another one. I don't know your unit, but you should be able to use it for heating or cooling. Maybe not with yours?

Can't you just unplug the freezer and plug in the hair dryer, for instance, and set the temp to where you want it to turn on?

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Yes, single stage controllers should be able to control a heater as well. Just plug in the heat source instead of the cooling source.

I don't think so.... Right now it turns on if a temp gets too warm, but I don't see a way to reverse that. I feel like hooking up a heater wil be an infinite feedback loop. It'll be too warm, so it'll turn on, and make it warmer. If its too cool, it'll turn off....

What controller do you have? Take a picture if you don't know the model?

johnson controls a19aat-2c

Very interesting. I have the same controller on my keezer and had no idea it's for cooling only. Here's a blurb from amazon: "Strictly a mechanical thermostat for cooling only, it is simple to use and economical."

Here's the manual: http://www.beveragefactory.com/images/guides/A19aat-2c.pdf

Since you're only able to cool, just focus on that.

I might just turn up the heat in my house for the last couple days of active fermentation. If I get it up to the mid to low 70's that should be sufficient to get that fantastic phenolic/ester combination that makes Belgian beers so nice, right?

helibrewer said:

I ended up with a second STC-1000 that I use on the fermentor in the freezer. It connects to a FermWrap on the fermentor and I use it to ramp the temperature up without having to warm the entire ferm chamber. I use about 18" of FermWrap (~60 watts). A brew belt won't do it inside a cold chamber.

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I have an stc-1000 and it works as a dual stage for me, why did you have to order 2nd?