Munich Dunkel Warsteiner Dunkel Clone

Grains:
5 lbs 2-row
2 lbs Flaked corn
1 lb Munich
0.25 lbs Black Patent

Hops:
0.75 oz Hallertauer 4% AA @ 60 min
0.25 oz Hallertauer 4% AA @ 5 min

Other:
1 tsp Irish Moss (rehydrated in 1/2 cup water) @ 15 min
Wyeast 2035 American Lager

Mash:
12 qts @ 152* for 75 min
170* for 10 min

Yeast Starter:
Boil 3 cups water with 2/3 cup DME for 5 minutes, cool quickly, and add the yeast.

24 hours later, boil some more, cool, and add (to double the volume).

Start this at least three days before brewing, so the yeast have time to work their way through it. I recommend trying to keep it around 75* so they work quickly.

Photos:
Warsteiner Dunkel is on the left, this recipe is on the right:

Batch notes (brewed May 1, 2011, kegged May 28, 2011:

I accidentally threw in the 5 minute hop addition at 15 minutes, since I was dumping in the Irish moss and let my mind wander...

Also, I had trouble keeping my mash temperature up for some reason, so I used up my water allowance on temperature control and did not sparge at all.

OG: 1.044
FG: 1.009
ABV: 4.6%

Primary: 10 days @ 43*
Diacetyl rest: 10 days @ 68*
Pre-keg lager: 8 days @ 38*

Tastes very light, not much flavor at the moment. I expect this to come out more as it lagers longer in the keg (it's only been two days). So far so good, though

Let us know in a month...
My try at a Warsteiner had more taste and more alcohol. Just came off lagering.
Would love to compare against what you made.

adam01 said:

Let us know in a month...
My try at a Warsteiner had more taste and more alcohol. Just came off lagering.
Would love to compare against what you made.

Click to expand...

I was going for a light lawnmower beer for the summer. Plus, the original is one of like three beers SWMBO has ever liked, so I decided to make it ASAP. Built a lagering fridge with this in mind.

How did this turn out ?

adam01 said:

How did this turn out ?

Click to expand...

It's really good! Probably my best batch yet. Lots of compliments. Not quite as light after maturation than I'd hoped, but still very enjoyable. I haven't checked, but I'd guess it's already 2/3 gone. I really need to take a picture and post it before it's all gone...

Hegh said:

Grains:
5 lbs 2-row
2 lbs Flaked corn
1 lb Munich

Hops:
0.75 oz Hallertauer 4% AA @ 60 min
0.25 oz Hallertauer 4% AA @ 5 min

Other:
1 tsp Irish Moss (rehydrated in 1/2 cup water) @ 15 min
Wyeast 2035 American Lager

Mash:
12 qts @ 152* for 75 min
170* for 10 min

Yeast Starter:
Boil 3 cups water with 2/3 cup DME for 5 minutes, cool quickly, and add the yeast.

24 hours later, boil some more, cool, and add (to double the volume).

Start this at least three days before brewing, so the yeast have time to work their way through it. I recommend trying to keep it around 75* so they work quickly.

Click to expand...

Personally i would Drop the Flaked Corn and replace it with Vienna or more Munich, i would also use a German Pilsner malt and a German Lager yeast.

Vance71975 said:

Personally i would Drop the Flaked Corn and replace it with Vienna or more Munich, i would also use a German Pilsner malt and a German Lager yeast.

Click to expand...

I used the flaked corn to lighten the body. Alternatively, I suppose you could just drop it altogether and go with lower alcohol too... I wouldn't recommend replacing it, though.

Hegh said:

I used the flaked corn to lighten the body. Alternatively, I suppose you could just drop it altogether and go with lower alcohol too... I wouldn't recommend replacing it, though.

Click to expand...

My main concern is that Corn is more of an American adjunct.But then again i really dont like light bodied beers. Hence why i would use Vienna or Munich in place of it. Plus the Vienna would add some complexity.

Vance71975 said:

My main concern is that Corn is more of an American adjunct.But then again i really dont like light bodied beers. Hence why i would use Vienna or Munich in place of it. Plus the Vienna would add some complexity.

Click to expand...

Oh, okay. For me, it really depends on the temperature and how much I've eaten; if it's hot and I'm thirsty, or if I've recently eaten, I like something more light-bodied. Last year I hadn't yet realized this, and only had heavy stuff on tap, so was very dissatisfied over the winter.

Hegh said:

Oh, okay. For me, it really depends on the temperature and how much I've eaten; if it's hot and I'm thirsty, or if I've recently eaten, I like something more light-bodied. Last year I hadn't yet realized this, and only had heavy stuff on tap, so was very dissatisfied over the winter.

Click to expand...

AHHH then you may like my Dry Rye Brown Ale, It is very Light and very dry, easy to drink a ton of and not fill up.

Very simple recipe too.

5lbs Rye malt
1.5lbs Crystal Rye
.5lbs Chocolate rye
a crap ton of rice hulls(i used like 3lbs)
3 oz Strisslesplat hops @ 60
3 oz Strisslesplat hops @ 15
Dry hopped at day 23 with 2oz Amarillo( i used 4 oz originally and it was a bit much did a 30 day primary as i always do)

Mash at 145 for 3 hours( i actually did a 7 hour mash just cause i needed sleep lol)

Fermented with k-97 but any yeast will do, as long as it is high attenuation.

Vance71975 said:

AHHH then you may like my Dry Rye Brown Ale, It is very Light and very dry, easy to drink a ton of and not fill up.

Very simple recipe too.

5lbs Rye malt
1.5lbs Crystal Rye
.5lbs Chocolate rye
a crap ton of rice hulls(i used like 3lbs)
3 oz Strisslesplat hops @ 60
3 oz Strisslesplat hops @ 15
Dry hopped at day 23 with 2oz Amarillo( i used 4 oz originally and it was a bit much did a 30 day primary as i always do)

Mash at 145 for 3 hours( i actually did a 7 hour mash just cause i needed sleep lol)

Fermented with k-97 but any yeast will do, as long as it is high attenuation.

Click to expand...

Wow, I didn't know you could do 100% rye. Does that taste very different from barley malt? I've only used rye once, and it was a much smaller portion.

Can you do a taste test against Warsteiner dunkel ?
Only when you are tasting both beers can you taste differences between them.
Like one is sweater, more roasty, crisper finish, etc.

Brewing is coming up for me before the end of the month. I'd like to get something real close
to warsteiner for the fall.

adam01 said:

Can you do a taste test against Warsteiner dunkel ?
Only when you are tasting both beers can you taste differences between them.
Like one is sweater, more roasty, crisper finish, etc.

Brewing is coming up for me before the end of the month. I'd like to get something real close
to warsteiner for the fall.

Click to expand...

I'll try, but the only place I know where I can get it is a bar where it's on tap. I'll check the local beer shop, though.

Hegh said:

Wow, I didn't know you could do 100% rye. Does that taste very different from barley malt? I've only used rye once, and it was a much smaller portion.

Click to expand...

You are only limited by your own willingness to be creative when it comes to brewing. That being said due to the extreme amount of dry hopping the flavor of Amarillo is about all i can pick up but it does taste pretty amazing.

adam01 said:

Can you do a taste test against Warsteiner dunkel ?
Only when you are tasting both beers can you taste differences between them.
Like one is sweater, more roasty, crisper finish, etc.

Brewing is coming up for me before the end of the month. I'd like to get something real close
to warsteiner for the fall.

Click to expand...

I found the Warsteiner Dunkel at the nearby beverage center. It's chilling now, so I'll let you know the result of the side-by-side tonight or tomorrow morning

Results of the side-by-side taste test with the original Warsteiner Dunkel:

Color: Nearly indistinguishable. Slightly redder (Warsteiner is slightly more orange), but only when placed in front of a bright light source.
Clarity: Indistinguishable.
Flavor: Cleaner, but missing what I call the "German Lager Bite," a flavor that I've noticed in multiple German lagers (I had a Spaten Optimator and a Spaten Oktoberfest last night, and they both had it as well). I expect it comes from the yeast, but I cannot be certain. It could simply be the use of a different roasted malt of some kind. (Edit: Someone suggested that this is likely due to decoction mashing, and I am inclined to agree.)
Aroma: Missing the aroma I associate with the "German Lager Bite," but has a very slight hop aroma.
Body: Slightly lighter, but nearly indistinguishable.
SWMBO: Prefers mine, as it has a sweeter aftertaste, where Warsteiner's is more bitter. She did not know which was which until after she expressed her opinion. She does not really like beer, but (as mentioned earlier in the thread), this is one of the three beers she's ever said she liked.

Recommendations: Try dropping the corn and replacing it with Vienna or Munich malt (Warsteiner probably sticks to the Reinheitsgebot). Use German malts instead of American. Use a German lager yeast instead of American. Stick with the 15 minute hop addition (or maybe move to 20 minutes to reduce aroma) instead of 5 minutes.

The choice of American ingredients was originally made because the BJCP Style Guidelines for Dark Lager list Warsteiner Dunkel as an American dark lager. I should have realized that it's a German dark lager that fits the American style guidelines, not actually an American dark lager.

Excellent !

Thanks for the taste testing. I think that the 'german lager' taste might be due to
decoction mashing. But that is an experiment for another batch...

adam01 said:

Excellent !

Thanks for the taste testing. I think that the 'german lager' taste might be due to
decoction mashing. But that is an experiment for another batch...

Click to expand...

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. I've only done one decoction mash, and didn't really know what to look for in the result... I'll think about trying that next time.

Also, I just added side-by-side pictures of Warsteiner Dunkel and this next to each other to the original post.

How are you getting that color out of that grist bill? I would expect the SRM to be like 6 using that? Your beer appears to be around 17-18 SRM. Something doesnt add up?

Im writing a recipe for A dunkel Im calling "Dark Side of the Mun"

74.9% Weyermann Munich Type II (9.5 lbs)
11.8% Gambrinus Dark Munich (1.5 lbs)
09.9% Weyermann Pilsner (1.25 lbs)
02.0% Crisp Crystal 77 (1/4 lb)
01.5% Carafa III De-Husked (3 oz)

.350 oz Magnum 60 Mins-16.5 IBU
.500 oz Hallertau 20 Mins-4 IBU
.250 oz Tettnang 10 Mins-1.5 IBU

Wyeast #2308 Munich Lager

1.052 OG
1.014 FG
22.1 IBU
19.2 SRM
5.1% ABV
BU/GU .421

The intent is a nice toasty base with just the slightest, and I mean slightest, notes of toffee/caramel & roast.

mhenry41h said:

How are getting that color out of that grist bill? I would expect the SRM to be like 6 using that? Your beer appears to be around 17-18 SRM. Something doesnt add up?

Click to expand...

Good catch, I forgot to list one of the ingredients (0.25 lbs Black Patent). I've updated the recipe, and I sincerely hope nobody followed it exactly and was disappointed. Sorry!

mhenry41h said:

Im writing a recipe for A dunkel Im calling "Dark Side of the Mun"
...
The intent is a nice toasty base with just the slightest, and I mean slightest, notes of toffee/caramel & roast.

Click to expand...

That sounds very tasty, you'll have to let us know how it comes out.

Hegh said:

Good catch, I forgot to list one of the ingredients (0.25 lbs Black Patent). I've updated the recipe, and I sincerely hope nobody followed it exactly and was disappointed. Sorry!

Click to expand...

I feel much better now! lol How much "roast" comes through when using a 1/4 lb of black malt? Ive considered using a touch of special roast as its my new secret weapon in many different styles. I LOVE the deep toast flavor without the astringency. Im not going to use it until I see how this base one turns out though.

mhenry41h said:

I feel much better now! lol How much "roast" comes through when using a 1/4 lb of black malt? Ive considered using a touch of special roast as its my new secret weapon in many different styles. I LOVE the deep toast flavor without the astringency. Im not going to use it until I see how this base one turns out though.

Click to expand...

It wasn't a lot of roast. I don't know if you saw it, but I posted a comparison with the real Warsteiner dunkel a page or two earlier. It was a very drinkable beer; ran out about two weeks ago.

I'm hoping to do it again this fall, but I'll probably tweak it a little. I'd like a little more roast, so maybe .33 lbs or so of black patent. Thinking about dropping the corn for some more Munich, also.

Hegh said:

It wasn't a lot of roast. I don't know if you saw it, but I posted a comparison with the real Warsteiner dunkel a page or two earlier. It was a very drinkable beer; ran out about two weeks ago.

I'm hoping to do it again this fall, but I'll probably tweak it a little. I'd like a little more roast, so maybe .33 lbs or so of black patent. Thinking about dropping the corn for some more Munich, also.

Click to expand...

I think I recall reading that Jamil Z reccommends something like 6 oz black malt in his Dunkel. He even goes out of his way to state that the style shouldnt be overtly roasty so 6 oz must be a good amount. I think he uses de-husked Carafa and grinds it into powder to avoid stout-like astringency from the roasted malt. I just did an American Brown with 9 oz Chocolate and while I am very happy with the result, I think next time Id reduce it to 7 ozs to get it away from crossing the line into quasi porter flavors. It always amazes me how such little dark roasted malt can add so much to beer.

Tasting WD, I don't taste much aroma or flavor hops. I think that either do 1
hop addition, or do 2 hops with just a bit for flavor at the end of the boil.

adam01 said:

Tasting WD, I don't taste much aroma or flavor hops. I think that either do 1
hop addition, or do 2 hops with just a bit for flavor at the end of the boil.

Click to expand...

I accidentally threw in the 1/4 oz at 15 minutes instead of 5 (mentioned in another post), and will be sticking to that. It came out very well.

adam01 said:

can you do a taste test against warsteiner dunkel ?
Only when you are tasting both beers can you taste differences between them.
Like one is sweater, more roasty, crisper finish, etc.

Brewing is coming up for me before the end of the month. I'd like to get something real close
to warsteiner for the fall.

Click to expand...

w

Ive brewed this a few times since I last posted...

First was to use 0.20 black patent malt. This was a nice dark lager, but wasn't WD.
So the LHBS suggested roasted malt. THis is it. I used 0.20 of roasted malt
and it began to have the roast and sweetness of WD. But 0.20 is not enough. Also
this lager tastes more like an ale. I guess I didn't lager cold enough.

So somewhere betweem 0.20 and 0.50 should be the amount needed.
I was brewing with these grains too.

81% Pilsner
17% Munich

The LHBS also suggested mashing low at 148 to drop the body and mouthfeel.
I still don't have the crispness of the WD, but maybe next time with colder lagering.

Time to brew, fall is coming - time for WD. Let us know what you come up with.

WD has got to be one of my favorite lagers for the warm patches we get in fall around here. Just getting my lager setup together this week, may have to try this one out. Adam, are you going to homebrew hq for your LHBS or is there one closer to our area (I'm almost in Parker/Murphy, so not too much of a jaunt from you)?

Yes, HBHQ is my place. PM me for contact details. We should meet
for a brewday.

Usually WD brew would be next, but its time for Oktoberfest this month.