TheJadedDog
AFK ATM
Porter
British IPA
Northern Brown
Ordinary Bitter
Scottish
ESB
British IPA
Northern Brown
Ordinary Bitter
Scottish
ESB
Pick 6 - Beer for Thought
- Thread starter Grinder12000
- Start date
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Chriso
Broken Robot Brewing Co.
Yes. An American Pale Ale == An APA == A Pale Ale with American ingredients.
No, an APA != a English Bitter. An English Bitter is an English Pale Ale. But that's not the same as an American Pale Ale. I don't even care what the quote from Designing Great Beers says ... if you believe that, well then a Belgian Pale must be no different either!!!
An English bitter is "made" what it is because of A) the yeast and B) the hops. If you want to go historical, C) the grains themself, and the unique soil they were grown in.
Same thing with the Belgian Pale. It's "made" what it is by A) the yeast, B), the hops, and C) the unique qualities of their local barley, historically speaking.
I recognize this is all just semantics. If you want to think of a Pale Ale and a Bitter as the same thing, fine, so be it. I'm not saying that they are not similar in nature. Yes, they are usually in the same SRM range. Yes, they usually have similar gravity specs. But they are not the same style.
Here's what wikipedia has to say:
No, an APA != a English Bitter. An English Bitter is an English Pale Ale. But that's not the same as an American Pale Ale. I don't even care what the quote from Designing Great Beers says ... if you believe that, well then a Belgian Pale must be no different either!!!
An English bitter is "made" what it is because of A) the yeast and B) the hops. If you want to go historical, C) the grains themself, and the unique soil they were grown in.
Same thing with the Belgian Pale. It's "made" what it is by A) the yeast, B), the hops, and C) the unique qualities of their local barley, historically speaking.
I recognize this is all just semantics. If you want to think of a Pale Ale and a Bitter as the same thing, fine, so be it. I'm not saying that they are not similar in nature. Yes, they are usually in the same SRM range. Yes, they usually have similar gravity specs. But they are not the same style.
Here's what wikipedia has to say:
flyangler18
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, Grinder- you need to spend some serious time studying the BJCP with respect to the various styles. I know that you have these aspirations of brewing commercially with the backing of an investor, but it's poor form to solicit all of us (thinly masked) for a 'pick 6' then you're hoping of putting into a beer lineup.
I have a feeling I know what is coming next.
I have a feeling I know what is coming next.
OP
OP
Grinder12000
Well-Known Member
Seriously - I was just curious as to WHAT people like - There were MANY that I have never tasted and it's more of a curiosity thing.
As for the brewing commercially - yea - I had not thought of that until a few weeks ago and it's still years away if any - I still chuckle at the idea. NO WAY would I ever open a brewery - zero - not a chance.
But a brew pub in a town of 4000 with zero money down?? Would you pass that up? I had a blog that is read by 10,000 a day (I was in the Movie Public Enemies with Johnny Depp July 1st 2009) and the people think I have some sort of talent - certainly was not MY idea! I'm just a happy homebrewer about to retire.
Let's just agree that you and the author have a difference of opinion and leave it at that.
As for the brewing commercially - yea - I had not thought of that until a few weeks ago and it's still years away if any - I still chuckle at the idea. NO WAY would I ever open a brewery - zero - not a chance.
But a brew pub in a town of 4000 with zero money down?? Would you pass that up? I had a blog that is read by 10,000 a day (I was in the Movie Public Enemies with Johnny Depp July 1st 2009) and the people think I have some sort of talent - certainly was not MY idea! I'm just a happy homebrewer about to retire.
Let's just agree that you and the author have a difference of opinion and leave it at that.
TheJadedDog
AFK ATM
I have read Designing Great Beers extensively, it is one of my favorite books, however, the BU:GU ratio is not the only indicator of style. I can have the same BU:GU ratio and use completely different grains or hops and achieve a completely different style. Having read the book I understand why he groups American and British pale ales together, they are quite similar (and he is trying to simplify the styles down to their basics), but, the different ingredients used make them taste quite different, thus many brewers (and the BJCP) treat them as separate styles.
Just as an example, drink a Sierra Nevada, then drink a Bass ale. Now tell me whether you think those are the same style or not.
I'm not disputing what you read, I'm just saying that Ray Daniels is not the final arbiter of beer styles.
OP
OP
Grinder12000
Well-Known Member
Remember - I'm a guy that is soaking up knowledge like a freaking sponge and until someone tells me I'm wrong or what I read is wrong I go with it.
I'm sorry for sounding aggressive - didn't mean to. I'm just obsessing over everything trying to catch up because this is the most FREAKING interesting thing I have ever been involved with.
Again - I apologize.
I will not step off my soap crate and slink off into the crowd.
I'm sorry for sounding aggressive - didn't mean to. I'm just obsessing over everything trying to catch up because this is the most FREAKING interesting thing I have ever been involved with.
Again - I apologize.
I will not step off my soap crate and slink off into the crowd.
IPA
APA*1
Hefe
Blond*2
Stout and/or *1
Porter
*1 Sneek in a seasonal here
*2 Sneek in a fruit beer
This is a real cynical commercial exercise. This is not based on my personal preference.
APA*1
Hefe
Blond*2
Stout and/or *1
Porter
*1 Sneek in a seasonal here
*2 Sneek in a fruit beer
This is a real cynical commercial exercise. This is not based on my personal preference.
ceannt
Well-Known Member
ESB
Irish dry Stout
Northern Brown Ale
Irish Red Ale
a very wimpy ordinary bitter
rotate belgian dubbel, scottish 70 etc.
Irish dry Stout
Northern Brown Ale
Irish Red Ale
a very wimpy ordinary bitter
rotate belgian dubbel, scottish 70 etc.
Real hard question to answer. First of all, an Engish Pale Ale and an APA are *not* the same thing; changing from EKG/Fuggles to Cascade/other American hops completely changes the character of the beer. APAs are BASED ON English pale ales, but they have become something wholly separate (which is why they are considered distinct as per the BJCP).
In fact, even "English Pale Ale" and "English Bitter" are not synonymous, the former will tend to have more hop flavor while the latter is more limited to a firm hop bitterness.
As to the styles, I think you have three or four house beers, then flesh out the rotation from there. American Pale Ale, IPA, a blond ale (Kolsh would be find, but you'll do a lot more explaining) and maybe either a porter or an English brown ale. Something darker, a bit sweeter.
I'd leave two spots for "rotation" beers; a dry stout (especially around St. Patty's day), I'd try and keep some kind of English pale ale/bitter/ESB around most of the time. ESB *might* be another good house style. Come winter, I'd do a barleywine and maybe a winter-warmer type, or even an Old Ale.
The key, IMHO, is keeping a balance of three or four really good beers - one or two that are pretty approachable, one or two like the IPA that are more for consseniuers - and also having a couple of beers that are interesting and seasonal. Do a hefe, but not in January. Do a barleywine, but not in June.
In fact, even "English Pale Ale" and "English Bitter" are not synonymous, the former will tend to have more hop flavor while the latter is more limited to a firm hop bitterness.
As to the styles, I think you have three or four house beers, then flesh out the rotation from there. American Pale Ale, IPA, a blond ale (Kolsh would be find, but you'll do a lot more explaining) and maybe either a porter or an English brown ale. Something darker, a bit sweeter.
I'd leave two spots for "rotation" beers; a dry stout (especially around St. Patty's day), I'd try and keep some kind of English pale ale/bitter/ESB around most of the time. ESB *might* be another good house style. Come winter, I'd do a barleywine and maybe a winter-warmer type, or even an Old Ale.
The key, IMHO, is keeping a balance of three or four really good beers - one or two that are pretty approachable, one or two like the IPA that are more for consseniuers - and also having a couple of beers that are interesting and seasonal. Do a hefe, but not in January. Do a barleywine, but not in June.
BEER_4_BREAKFAST
Well-Known Member
McMenamins Hammerhead
Bridgeport IPA
Full Sail Amber
Rogue Dead Guy
Rogue American
McMenamins Ruby
Bridgeport IPA
Full Sail Amber
Rogue Dead Guy
Rogue American
McMenamins Ruby
Chriso
Broken Robot Brewing Co.
Wait what? Uhm. Which thread are you in? I'm so, so confused!
phissionkorps
Well-Known Member
Now that I think about it, I'd replace IPA with rotating seasonal or something. Probably 75% percent of people that are into homebrewing/craft beer like/love IPAs, but we only make up like 3% of the market. While its hard to get BMCers to try different things, most can be coaxed into something different, unless it smells like they're going to drink a liquid Christmas tree. It'd be something good to have, but not if limited to only 6 beers...I don't think it'd make enough money.
I'm not sure the assumptions about bias in this thread are true?
My local brew pub does an IPA from time to time and it sells out so fast I often miss out on getting it. On cask night there is a line a half hour long to get the cask version which is dry hopped with about a pound of hops. The cask version is the best IPA I've ever had anywhere, period (which is why I need to do one at home
). They also have a Bavarian Hefe on tap all the time which is very popular. It's way too 
for me. And I know their amber (American amber, ~30 IBU) is their most popular beer. Their blonde ale is less popular than the amber...
One thing that makes even their hoppy beers approachable is that they use horizon, cascade, and amarillo hops and they steer clear of the hop-bomb high cohumulone hop varieties which would turn off folks who are not hop heads.
My local brew pub does an IPA from time to time and it sells out so fast I often miss out on getting it. On cask night there is a line a half hour long to get the cask version which is dry hopped with about a pound of hops. The cask version is the best IPA I've ever had anywhere, period (which is why I need to do one at home
). They also have a Bavarian Hefe on tap all the time which is very popular. It's way too for me. And I know their amber (American amber, ~30 IBU) is their most popular beer. Their blonde ale is less popular than the amber...One thing that makes even their hoppy beers approachable is that they use horizon, cascade, and amarillo hops and they steer clear of the hop-bomb high cohumulone hop varieties which would turn off folks who are not hop heads.
Grinder,
Having just come across this thread, and skimmed through it quickly, I think that one thing to keep in mind about Designing Great Beers, no matter how much everyone talks it up, no matter how great of a book it is, it is 12 years old, the most recent edition is almost 9 years old, and information changes in the beer world. Look at how dated Papazians book is at this point. I am not saying that it is not a fantastic resource, but I think that it is best used when you put it together with the most recent BJCP style guide.
That being said, I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of the book. I just listened to an interview with Ray Daniels recently, and the man sounds like he really knows his stuff.
Regarding your post, #46 in this thread, I applaud your willingness to admit that you might have come across wrong to others, and your desire to fix that. I think that we can all, to one degree or another, appreciate your obsessiveness. I don't think that any of us would be around here if we did not share it to some degree. I know that I drive my family, friends, co-workers, and especially my wife, insane with all my talking about beer. I can't help it, it is what I love and what I hunger to know more about.
Do not slink off into the crowd... what this group needs it active members, who work to not only expand their own knowledge, but that of others. Instead, strive to know when to ask a question, when to answer a question, and when to do a little of both. Some of the best answers that I have seen given on this forum start with a sentence similar to this "Well, I could be wrong, but what I have heard is that...". This not only attempts to answer the OP's question, but also shows that you are open to being educated yourself, if the knowledge that you have on the subject proves to be inaccurate or incomplete.
Having just come across this thread, and skimmed through it quickly, I think that one thing to keep in mind about Designing Great Beers, no matter how much everyone talks it up, no matter how great of a book it is, it is 12 years old, the most recent edition is almost 9 years old, and information changes in the beer world. Look at how dated Papazians book is at this point. I am not saying that it is not a fantastic resource, but I think that it is best used when you put it together with the most recent BJCP style guide.
That being said, I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of the book. I just listened to an interview with Ray Daniels recently, and the man sounds like he really knows his stuff.
Regarding your post, #46 in this thread, I applaud your willingness to admit that you might have come across wrong to others, and your desire to fix that. I think that we can all, to one degree or another, appreciate your obsessiveness. I don't think that any of us would be around here if we did not share it to some degree. I know that I drive my family, friends, co-workers, and especially my wife, insane with all my talking about beer. I can't help it, it is what I love and what I hunger to know more about.
Do not slink off into the crowd... what this group needs it active members, who work to not only expand their own knowledge, but that of others. Instead, strive to know when to ask a question, when to answer a question, and when to do a little of both. Some of the best answers that I have seen given on this forum start with a sentence similar to this "Well, I could be wrong, but what I have heard is that...". This not only attempts to answer the OP's question, but also shows that you are open to being educated yourself, if the knowledge that you have on the subject proves to be inaccurate or incomplete.
