Building permits for a dedicated brewing room - hints?

Hi everyone!

I'm close to starting construction on finishing my basement that (among other things) will include a dedicated brewing room. We will be paying/pulling permits on all the work done. I'm am looking for hints from anyone who's gone through the process of registering and permitting their home brewery build correctly.

My contractor doing my basement has concerns that it will appear a bit 'odd' to declare that we're building a brewery even if it's for home use. I'm told that some local inspectors like to get their panties in a knot over silly things. A brewery will send them over the edge I imagine.

My basement brewery will have a large vent hood with exhaust to the outside, a make-up air system, and a 30-50A electrical outlet to power the setup. In a way a lot like a small basement kitchen.

While every state/province will be different, I'm looking for general lessons learned and plan on being 100% honest about what I'm doing.

How did you explain what you are doing to inspectors in a way they understand and don't cause issues? Any tips?

Any thoughts/opinions welcome. If you're from Ontario Canada (my building code) then even better!

Kal

Since your from Canada, just tell them you make maple syrup down there. I'm sure that's super common and they wouldnt have a second thought about it.

you are building a kitchen...not a brewery. a kitchen gets you water/waste, electric/gas and ventilation. everything you need for your permits or inspections. then the details of how you do it are up to you and your contractor.

JRems said:

Since your from Canada, just tell them you make maple syrup down there. I'm sure that's super common and they wouldnt have a second thought about it.

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Got it!

"Nothing to see here Mr. Inspector. We're just makin' back bacon, maple syrup, and tuques for our beavers!"



Kal

brewingmeister said:

you are building a kitchen...not a brewery. a kitchen gets you water/waste, electric/gas and ventilation. everything you need for your permits or inspections. then the details of how you do it are up to you and your contractor.

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Makes sense.

Contractor's worried that seeing the giant vent hood installed at final inspection's going to make them wonder what's going on. It's not really a standard kitchen.

They're basically going to see this:



For initial permitting it makes sense of course, but we have multiple steps of inspection here. They want to make sure you're building what you say you're building.

Kal

I agree. It's a kitchen. It shouldn't matter that you over engineered it. Tell the inspector that you are worried about mold and IAQ issues with a kitchen in the basement. And it shouldn't matter the purpose of the kitchen.

I know you are all elec but I mention gas because maybe you would like a gas fireplace to watch while you brew.

also if you add a gas line, show a pic of a big commercial range that's 'on order' and mention you like to do big lobster boils it seems necessary.

Start generic with "kitchen". If they want more details, I agree with the maple syrup line. You need to boil that sap for hours to get something like a 40:1 reduction in volume, so a huge vent/hood wouldn't raise any eyebrows.

Do building inspectors take bribes? Make him some beer and tell him to sign off the paperwork.

In reality all a brewery is a kitchen. You are making a "Barley Stock". I would be surprised if the inspector made a big stink about it.

I know that the when we had an inspector "inspect" our new patio, he pushed up on the ceiling joist and past it.

For the hood just say you don't want smells traveling up into the house. You want to make sure it is all vented.

Tell them you're making big pots of soup and you're planning on going commercial with it later.

So far many people are saying that I should be skirting the issue about making beer. Why? What's wrong with telling them it's for making beer for personal home consumption? It's certainly not illegal where I'm from.

Why would they care whether I'm boiling pasta or boiling wort?

Kal

kal said:

So far many people are saying that I should be skirting the issue about making beer. Why? What's wrong with telling them it's for making beer for personal home consumption? It's certainly not illegal where I'm from.

Why would they care whether I'm boiling pasta or boiling wort?

Kal

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I would be straight and upfront about it. I don't know what legal reason an inspector would have for holding up a home brewery in the basement, unless your local government does not allow basement kitchens. I misread your post as to mean that you were looking the explain away a brewery.

Wow... Kal, I can not wait to see this thing in progress as well as finished. You no not know the meaning of "half-a$$" Look forward to some really innovative ideas flying off the pages of this thread.
As far as skirting the issue... It is always easier to just tell the truth. Who cares what you are cooking... as long as it isn't illegal the inspector has NO RIGHT to care or cause a fuss over it. I do think a brewery is just a glorified kitchen though.

Brewery brings to mind, for those that don't brew, large scale professional brewery. Though there are endless sizes of operations whether pro or home brewer but for those not in the mix their mind generally wanders toward big pro operations.

Why jump through hoops if you don't have to?

just the thoughts of someone whose 'brewery' has been accused of meth making from some uninformed yahoo driving down the road in front of the house.

I don't think the inspector is going to care what you are using the room for as much as if everything is installed properly. I'd bet they will not ask you a single question as to the purpose of all installed items. But if they do, it won't hurt to keep the explanation as "neutral" as possible, because at the end of the day they are the ones that can cause you a lot of grief if they are having a bad afternoon. So if they ask, keep the explanation neutral; "My wife gave me approval for this little project but I had to guarantee her that no smells would make it to the upstairs". Done.

When I did a build-out of my new office, I wanted a private bathroom in my personal office. According to code, it had to be a handicap accessible restroom, which I didn't have close to the amount of space for. So my architect showed it as a "utility closet" on the plans. My contractor just stubbed everything out for the inspection, I passed inspection, and then my contractor came back and installed the toilet/sink afterwards. Obviously, the inspector knew there was no way I was putting a damn utility closet in my carpeted private office, but if it's up to code for the inspection what are they going to say? He didn't ask, but if he did, I would have looked him in the eye and said, "my architect said that's the best place for it", shrugged my shoulders, and smiled. Done.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I've heard that what passes and doesn't is open to debate. The code is "loose" enough from my understanding that it can come down to interpretation by the inspector.

For example, there's a couple of local inspectors that (I'm told) do not allow spray foam insulation to be used in basements - ever. I have no idea of the reasons. Other inspectors are fine with it. That to me makes absolutely no sense. It either is allowed or isn't. (FWIW I want to use spray foam, at least in the rim joists... it just irks me that I'm willing to pay the city thousands of dollars for permitting to do things the right way, only to possibly have to in the end tell them "I don't care if you don't pass me Mr. Inspector ... I'm leaving it how it is").

Kal

brewingmeister said:

you are building a kitchen...not a brewery. a kitchen gets you water/waste, electric/gas and ventilation. everything you need for your permits or inspections. then the details of how you do it are up to you and your contractor.

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Excellent point.

Personally, if you can't see the remodeling activity from the street I would not be pulling a permit. The Gov't doesn't need to know everything I'm doing, especially when they apply the rules differently depending on the inspector.

(I wish I had a basement!!)

It's a major basement reno (the entire basement's being done) so there will be contractor trucks and building material in the driveway/garage for some time. I'm also in a new neighbourhood so I see city inspectors drive by every day as they're quite litterally building new houses 2 doors down. I'm not trying to hide anything.

So back on topic: I think the best thing to do is to call it a 'hobby room' and not a 'brewery'. Calling it a brewery would raise alarms as they'd think it's some sort of commercial establishment. If they ask, the hobby is making beer.

Kal

Kal,
British Columbia experience here...

At first glance, you may have problems with the quantity of air you want to exhaust to the outside. Some jurisdictions require a dedicated, tempered make-up-air source to balance the outgoing exhaust, if the exhaust is over a certain quantity, relative to the square footage of the dwelling. The total exhaust is what counts, so add up your kitchen range hood and toilet exhaust, the dryer is exempt.

If you have any naturally drafted gas fired appliances in the house, you don't want the products of combustion backdrafting while you are brewing.

If your water heater and furnace/boiler are direct vent (balanced, sealed combustion air and venting) you may be able to have a relaxed requirement for make-up-air, but you will have to speak nicely to the inspectors, both building and plumbing/gas.

The key with inspectors is to consult with them. They enjoy thinking they are in control and will usually work with you, as they just want potential "issues" to go away (at least that is my experience. Construction, 28 years).

Good luck.
Ken.

kenmunkholm said:

At first glance, you may have problems with the quantity of air you want to exhaust to the outside. Some jurisdictions require a dedicated, tempered make-up-air source to balance the outgoing exhaust, if the exhaust is over a certain quantity, relative to the square footage of the dwelling. The total exhaust is what counts, so add up your kitchen range hood and toilet exhaust, the dryer is exempt.

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We have a 900CFM hood fan in our kitchen and we were required to install a large make-up air system already because of it. I think the limit was 280-300CFM. Anything higher and the builder told us we MUST install a make-up air system. So we did.

It's a large 10-12" duct to the outside with an inline heater & damper, which feeds into the cold air return. It's tied to the kitchen hood fan through a current sensor: When the kitchen hood is on, the damper opens allowing air from the outside to enter the house.

The brewery exhaust fan is about 450CFM. The brewery will have it's own make-up air system so I didn't plan on tying the brewery hood fan to the whole house make-up air system at all. I'm planning on a simple duct with a damper to the outside (no heater - no point). When I brew and have the large brewery hood fan running I want to have the brew room door closed too so that I don't suck heated or cooled air from the rest of the house (a waste of energy). I want to suck in make-up air from outside. We'll make sure there is the required distance between the input & exhaust to avoid recirculation.

Thanks for the heads up Ken. Make up air is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed properly. My old brewing room had a make-up air system too for this reason.

We do have a natural gas fireplace and both the hot water tank & furnace are direct vent (air in and venting directly sealed to the outside).

Kal

kal said:

Got it!

"Nothing to see here Mr. Inspector. We're just makin' back bacon, maple syrup, and tuques for our beavers!"

Kal

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Kal you made my day, I love this post

The "issues" that would arise from an Inspector standpoint given the scale of the kitchen equipment/brewery would be from that of ignorance on the inspectors part.

I am not an inspector but, I do code review prior to permitting.

Had I not had the viewpoint of being a homebrewer, I would be questioning whether or not you are a home occupation and whether or not you are beyond the limits of of a home occupation thus infringing on Zoning allowances, licensure requirements, and health department regulation.

Sure, it may seem ludicrous from your viewpoint but as a Licensed Code Official we are obligated to question these things.

It's mostly about zoning. Are you allowed to have a commercial kitchen, second residential kitchen (think multi-family housing)? Submit it as a brewroom for your homebrew beer.

DaleHair said:

It's mostly about zoning. Are you allowed to have a commercial kitchen, second residential kitchen (think multi-family housing)? Submit it as a brewroom for your homebrew beer.

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Meh. I say submit it as an unspecified remodel. Naming the project is usually not mandatory. And typically, showing equipment details on residential plans is not required.

A single tier brewery cooktop looks just like that, a cooktop, until you specifiy brewpots.

I am not saying lie. What I am saying is that often times applicants create their own problems by providing too much information that would have otherwise not been asked for or questioned.

If they ask, tell em you make beer, do lots of crab/lobster/crawfish boils, and really like soup.

Saying "brewery" is just a red flag. Whether it's legal or not is irrelevant because the ignorant will not go out of their way to investigate legality but rather they will just hear "moonshine" or "meth lab". "kitchen" is an adequate description for the purposes of permitting and if they do press you, tell them you boil syrup and make soups as a hobby. The fermentation aspect of what you really do is non of their business.

I say submit it as a homebrew room. It is legal period. Being upfront and honest is the easiest route. make sure you can demonstrate that you don't make more then you are supposed to and he will have no legal ground for denying you. in the end you could be making sex toys down there its none of there damn business as long as the building is safe.

I think the point of calling it a kitchen is that plan reviewers/inspectors understand that. And, it IS really just an over built kitchen. The problem I see with calling it a "Brewery" is that most people interpret that as a "commercial" use.

It's not "lying" or "hiding the truth" - it's just good communication.

I say submit it as a homebrew room.

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The problem with calling a "homebrew room" is that there are not likely codes and regulations written for that use. At that point, the inspector/reviewer has to make a judgement call on what that really means.

I agree with Bobby. It's a kitchen. What you make in your kitchen is of no concern to anyone but you. Home brewing is legal in Canada, therefore it has no bearing on the main purpose of the basement kitchen. The only potential issue is with the supposed a-hole inspector roaming your area!! Don't chance it...just don't use the word "brewing", all it can do is force you through more hoops and delay your build. You aren't doing anything illegal.

Kal,

I envy the fact that you are Canadian, live in Canada and have a beautiful country. Being Syracuse, NY most people think I live in Canada anyways, so I've always had an appreciation for Canada.

That being said, I DO NOT ENVY your bureaucratic process up there. My company recently sold a piece of industrial equipment with a gas train to a location in Toronto. WOW! Even with upfront certifications, we still had to submit information to the local government for review and had to go through an onsite review! I never knew how good I had it "down" here!

Good luck! I would definitely go with submitting only the information required of you or consulting the inspector prior to submission so he can guide you. Inspectors are people too! If you involve them upfront they will be more lenient down range as you have been working along side them the whole time.

Looks like a pretty standard kitchen for someone who loves to cook to me.

Find one that appreciates good beer and lubricate the process.

Just some lessons I've learned in life:
Tell the truth, but not the whole truth.
Saying too much can get you in trouble. I call it the "Whack-A-Mole" syndrome.
My brewery is often used for the preparation of food, and I sometimes call it my kitchen, so calling it a kitchen is not a lie.

I would call it a kitchen, and if they inquire what you are cooking that requires such a large hood, just tell them you got it for a good deal and that it looks awesome. If they push you, tell the truth that it is for beer. But I would leave that out as long as possible without hiding the truth.

Anyone who says that because brewing is legal clears you to tell them has not dealt with the illogical process that can be building inspections.

Earthbound is right on. IMO, calling it a hobby room is somewhat misleading. Just call it a kitchen, and if pushed explain that you make beer sometimes as a hobby and need the big hood.

I think you could literally call the inspector's office or show up in person and ask this question. Get the name of the person you talk to. Tell them what you want to do and they should tell you if any code issues come to mind. You may even want to bring a sketchup of what you are trying to do. You don't have to give them anything other than you first name, in case they do raise any issues that you need to work around once you actually submit the plans.

Yup. My designer/builder's going to be doing that. He was asking that I ask around first for any lessons learnt from others that have possibly done this before as a home brewery is not a typical thing that gets built (as many have mentioned).

I completely agree that for a code standpoint this really isn't any different than a basement kitchen.

Kal

I tried to do just this in my last house and was initially denied due to zoning regulations. Apparently here, when in a single family dwelling, you cannot have a sink greater in size than a wet-bar nor a seperate food preparation area (aka kitchen).

This is because the house is zoned as single family I guess and putting in a kitchen-like area in the basement allows it to be used by multiple families.

It's just crazy -- I get why the laws are there and all. You don't want your neighborhood houses being bought up and made into multi-tenant rentals but seriously.

I ended up finishing the basement without the kitchen area, then later going back in after the contractors left and final approval was granted and adding what I wanted.

Granted I wasn't doing an electric brewery. I just wanted a SS deep sink and counter in the basement for cleaning/racking/working with my wines and beers.

Good, now that we got the prelim. stuff out of the way, I expect a separate thread in the DIY section on this build!

Also, I know you will sneak in a home theater + bar like you had at your old place - gotta see that too.