problems with liquid yeast

So I have been wondering. I've read a couple threads on the forum about this and had a few more questions about it.

So I've never had great success with liquid yeasts. I know I'll probably take some crap for this but no I typically don't make starters. My brewing habits are quite erratic. So I never really plan out 3 days in advance to make a starter. It more like I wake up and say..."I think I'll brew today".

So anyways back on point. So I've read that liquid yeast have a lower yeast count than dry and thus take longer to start. I've always just followed the directions on the tube. Pitch at 70-75. Hold temp till fermentation begins and go from there. But it takes forever! How long should one wait for fermentation to begin? 24 hours...longer? I read also people waiting as long as 3 days for fermentation to begin, but I also read that waiting that long risks contamination. So what's the general consensus on this?

Also can one expect to still impart some of the liquid yeasts flavor even if you re-pitch with dry yeast? Like for instance first pitching with a Klosch yeast and then re-pitching with an ale yeast?

Thanks all in advance!

Cheers,


EDIT: thought I should add that I'm just speaking of the white labs pitch-able yeast tubes.

Yeast Propagation 101 for you on Saturday dude

Awsome bro I'll be ready to soke up any insight you can give me


so you got any answers for my questions LOL?

So this is my opinion based on experience and empirical observations:

The liquid yeast (Wyeast Smack Pack and White Labs vial) are meant to be pitchable. You may need starters for higher gravity beers and it may help all beers.

I made 3 batches without starters with Wyeast. They all began fermenting within 24hrs and finished (well, 90% to FG) in three days.

I think that people that have to wait 3 days are having problems that are a result of the yeast alone. There are some things that you can do to help:
1. Aerate, aerate, aerate
2. Let the yeast warm up, overnight if possible.
3. Pitch yeast into wort that is the same temperature as the yeast (room temp)
4. Keep the fermentation in the high range of the stain until fermentation starts
5. Use a yeast nutrient

If you pitch dry yeast before the liquid take hold, expect little to no character of the liquid yeast.

BTW, the white labs Kolsch yeast (WLP029) is notorious for a very, very slow starter. You really need a starter with this yeast.

Also, you can make a starter, let it propagate, then stick it in the fridge. When you are ready to brew pull it out to warm up.

I hear you, but if you did make starters you would not be blaming the yeast.

That fact that you were unsuccessful with them is indicative that you were not doing something right, not the yeasts fault.

Here's part of my yeast collection...

Even though the vials/smack packs are meant to be pitchable, they still have a pretty low cell count. Obviously you've done your homework, and you know that a starter will rarely hurt when using liquid yeast.

If you re-pitch with a different yeast strain, dry or liquid, the results are going to be somewhat unpredictable. The healthier strain will tend to dominate, but that's hard to determine. So, it's hard to say which characteristics are going to come through.

If you're a "spur of the moment" brewer, I suggest using dry yeast. It tends to take off a bit quicker than liquid yeast without a starter, and it's cheaper. If you're dead set on liquid yeast, start making starters!

Make a starter whenever you have a spare 15 minutes, then put it in the fridge after a couple of days. When that "special moment" comes up, act like it is still in the vial and warm it up, then pitch. You have a good cell count, you have a good liquid yeast.....badabing.

Thanks all! Yeah I'm starting to realize to have good success with liquid yeast that I just need to be making starters. And yes I'm used to and have had great success with dry yeasts....but I'm ready to start imparting some different flavors in my favorite styles. As I'm sure you all know after a while you begin to taste a common similarity in all beers if you use the same dry yeast. No matter what the style.

Thanks everyone for the advice and the clarity


Cheers,

newguy said:

Thanks all! Yeah I'm starting to realize to have good success with liquid yeast that I just need to be making starters. And yes I'm used to and have had great success with dry yeasts....but I'm ready to start imparting some different flavors in my favorite styles. As I'm sure you all know after a while you begin to taste a common similarity in all beers if you use the same dry yeast. No matter what the style.

Thanks everyone for the advice and the clarity


Cheers,

Click to expand...

Right. In order to get the flavor for a specific beer you need that specific yeast. Other than that your beers flavor relies too heavily on the hops bitterness.

You know you can just plan better. If you think you'll brew on Sat make a starter on Wed. If you don't then all you need to do is put it in the fridge. You can pull it out a couple hours to brewing to warm to room temp and you'll be good to go.

I have a yeast starter question: I have read the how-tos for re-hydrating dry yeast, and how-tos for making starters for liquid yeast. I have never read a how-to for dry yeast that tells you to re-hydrate dry yeast and then make a starter. Is this because the cell count is so much higher with dry yeast, that re-hyrating it is sufficient and a starter is not really necessary?

Correct, there are plenty of cells in a dry yeast packet to do the job so no starter necessary. Now here's a good question though. I've been harvesting slurry from batches that I used dry yeasts in. For example, I have 16 oz each of Saflager 23 and Nottingham slurry in the fridge. A fellow HBTer saw them and had a laugh but my arguement is that I'd rather pitch a slurry instead of fresh rehydrated. You might say it's not worth the risk that the slurry is contaminated because you're only saving $1.50 or so, but I think the cost savings is a minor benefit compared to pitching like 5x the cells. Let's face it, if you're not confident in your sanitation, it doesn't really matter whether the original strain was initially pitched as liquid or dry. Thoughts?

homebrewer_99 said:

Right. In order to get the flavor for a specific beer you need that specific yeast. Other than that your beers flavor relies too heavily on the hops bitterness.

You know you can just plan better. If you think you'll brew on Sat make a starter on Wed. If you don't then all you need to do is put it in the fridge. You can pull it out a couple hours to brewing to warm to room temp and you'll be good to go.

Click to expand...

Yeah HB that's my plan from now on. See I just wasn't clear on the part that you can store the starters. What's the average length you can save a starter for?