Single tier, 2 vessle, brutus 2.0ish build concept

Ok I am getting my stuff together for my brewery build and as most builds it will be a work in progress. My biggest hassle so far is sourcing kegs (It's pretty hard here in NZ with some people wanting $80-100 per keg, ok of my budget since I can wait till the scrapyard has them in at $40!)
I have 2 kegs so far, so I thought why not start with a 2 vessel system and upgrade when I find my last keg (plus I want more sankes for fermenting in but that's another story )

My final plan is a 3-vessel-single-tier-1-pump-batch-sparge homebrewery (mouthful!) So I wanted my build to go towards this goal to reduce rework, e.g. make the 3 vessel frame instead of just 2 vessel.

I had a few ideas on how to get away with only 1 tier and only 1 pump with only 2 vessels - build a rims tube and use it as a on demand water heater for sprage water then step the sparge up to mashout with the rims. Then I remembered the Brutus 2.0 concept of recirc'ing the wort from the BK-HLT-BK till it was well mixed. Only problem is that both these ways need more equipment than I want to invest in (right now) with either a rims tube or another pump needed.

So then came my brilliant idea (or brain fart, I'll let you guys decide) - Process flow for my "stop-gap" system:
Heat strike water in BK,
Dough/mash in (pump strike water to MLT with grains),
Mash,
Heat sparge water in BK,
Pump sparge water into MLT,
Recirc MLT until happy I have got all I will get out of the grains,
Pump wort to BK.

A quick (rough) check on volumes for a 10 gallon batch:
10 gallons into fermenter
1.5 gallons boil off
1.75 gallons grain volume - ~22# grains for 1.050 @ 65% eff (0.08 gallons/# or 0.32 qt/# from a thread on here somewhere)
Equals
13.25 gallons (just enough room)

Any thoughts guys & girls?

Hmm...where do your first runnings go if your sparge water is in the BK?

MalFet said:

Hmm...where do your first runnings go if your sparge water is in the BK?

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I would pump the sparge water into the MLT, then recirce to mix it/settle the grain bed, then pump all the wort into the boil kettle. Basically I would not have 1st/2nd runnings, sort of like BIAB but with the benifit of being able to have a mash thickness in the range of 1-1.5 and heating the "sparge" water to raise the mash to mashout temps when it is added at the end of the mash.

The last bit was working out if a keg could hold all the "sparge" water + all the strike water (effectivly the pre-boil volume) + all the grain.

mattd2 said:

I would pump the sparge water into the MLT, then recirce to mix it/settle the grain bed, then pump all the wort into the boil kettle.

That was what the last bit was working out, if a keg could hold all the sparge water + all the strike water (effectivly the pre-boil volume) + all the grain.

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Ah. It's not really sparging then so much as a full volume mash where you add half of the volume at the end. Why not just a no sparge then? You won't be gaining any efficiency from what you're proposing.

MalFet said:

Ah. It's not really sparging then so much as a full volume mash where you add half of the volume at the end. Why not just a no sparge then? You won't be gaining any efficiency from what you're proposing.

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Really? From what I have read (breifly ) I could expect around 60-65% for no sparge and 70-75% for Brutus 2.0 (basically what I am proposing but in 1 vessel).
One thing I did just realise, do you think I am going to run into trouble having the water much higher over the grain bed than for the Brutus 2.0 way?

mattd2:

Check out this thread

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/no-sparge-brewing-byo-275555/

You will need to increase grain bill to make up for loss of efficiency, that is, if you are accustomed to getting 75 or 80 percent efficiency. Keith Mahoney has a simple approach with the system you are building and it should work just fine. His comment is around page 6 of the thread mentioned above.

Good luck!

mattd2 said:

Really? From what I have read (breifly ) I could expect around 60-65% for no sparge and 70-75% for Brutus 2.0 (basically what I am proposing but in 1 vessel).
One thing I did just realise, do you think I am going to run into trouble having the water much higher over the grain bed than for the Brutus 2.0 way?

Click to expand...

Not sure. I've never seen a Brutus 2.0. But, why would adding some of the water late give you higher efficiency than adding it all at the beginning?

Thanks 10AC! good read (well I will have to actually read the whole thing when I get home, just read the last few posts )
Mal, 10AC's link kind of explains it I think. Mashing really thin increases your the mash pH leading to lower extraction.
As I think about it, I could gently pump the "sparge" water ontop of the grains and end of with a "trafic light drink" effect of sweet wort at the bottom and water ontop. then just slowly drain the MLT and sparge as I go...

Oh and the other point I got from the thread was... this is not my briliant idea! Why is it everytime you think your invented a better mousetrap, someone has already done it a year ago