Mash water volume ratios.

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Brewpastor

Brewpastor

Beer, not rocket chemistry
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OK lets talk water volumes you use in a mash. I am pretty particular about it myself. Different brews have different amounts of mash water. It runs with mash temperature for me and relates to the finish I want. A hotter and thicker mash gets a higher terminal gravity, a thinner and cooler mash will a lower terminal gravity.

When I started all-graining I was a 150 degrees and 1 quart per pound for everything kind of brewer, but I have gotten away from that. My IIPA for example is generally mashed at around 146 with 1.333 quarts per pound. My work horse Pale Ale is generally around 150 and is around 1.25 quarts, while my bock is 154 and 1 quart.

What is your practice?
 
I like a Malty Ale with body and am not trying to get maximum ABV so I go at 68°C and 2.61l/kg. (around 154 and 1.3) For an IPA i'll drop them a bit.
 
Pretty sure that this is a topic that Palmer talks about, and the conclusion was that while mash thickness has some impact on wort fermentability, the impact of temperature is much, much larger. So, I've just stuck to a basic 1.25 - 1.30 qt/lb ratio, occassionally a bit thinner when I've had to make temperature adjustments with hot or cold water infusions. I target temperature as best I can and leave thickness constant.

What I'm really shocked at is that my last beer fermented out a *lot* dryer than I expected (to 1008), despite a mash temp that was solidly in the middle (154). Not sure if there was an issue with my thermometer being off a couple degrees, or what, but I didn't think I'd end up with that high an attenuation (85%) without a much cooler mash.
 
OMG...you weren't kidding! ;)

Great topic.

I've actually been experimenting with this lately too. I am trying to figure out a happy medium so I don't have to use cara-pils anymore (not that I mind using it--I just want to graduate as a brewer and say I don't have to use it if I don't want to...).


If I am deciphering your fancy brewers terms "terminal gravity", essentially for a dryer beer you want a thin mash and a lower mash temperature. For a maltier, more body beer you mash thick and at a higher temp....right?

This is how I understand it and have been testing it lately. Notes on my latest beers have taken more pages so I can go back and read specifics on what I've done.

I assume you don't use any kind of dextrine malts in your recipes (I'm too lazy to go back and look)?
 
I have been wondering this myself. My DunkelWeizen was a thin mash because I did a protein rest, stepped in a cylindrical @150. I have been trying to shoot for higher mash temps (154 ish) @1:1 for things like Oatmeal Stout, etc....and 1:1.25 1:1.5 and around 150ish for Pale's etc.
 
I brew on the dark side, so I tend to mash thin (>1.3) & higher temps (152-155). That gives me more body, malt, mouthfeel and high final gravities. Hoppy ales will go the other way.
 
Dude said:
OMG...you weren't kidding! ;)
Click to expand...


Nope, he weren't!


For the time-being, I'm keeping my ratio at 1.25-1.3 for all my brews and working hard on really fine control of my mash temperatures. The way I look at it is that at this point, it's one less variable to worry about. I have also read, like '_bird said, that temperature has waaay more noticeable affect on the final product.
 
Dude said:
OMG...you weren't kidding! ;)

Great topic.

I've actually been experimenting with this lately too. I am trying to figure out a happy medium so I don't have to use cara-pils anymore (not that I mind using it--I just want to graduate as a brewer and say I don't have to use it if I don't want to...).


If I am deciphering your fancy brewers terms "terminal gravity", essentially for a dryer beer you want a thin mash and a lower mash temperature. For a maltier, more body beer you mash thick and at a higher temp....right?

This is how I understand it and have been testing it lately. Notes on my latest beers have taken more pages so I can go back and read specifics on what I've done.

I assume you don't use any kind of dextrine malts in your recipes (I'm too lazy to go back and look)?
Click to expand...

I use dextrine malts in lagers from time to time, but it has been way too long since I made one, so I can't really say if I would now. I don't use them in my ales and let lighter crystal kind of fill in that spot if I feel the need.

An example is my IIPA which is really a very strong and hoppy brew, but because of the low mash temperature, the higher volume of water in the mash, the balancing of all the alcohol with the malt, the dryness from low mash temperature balanced by the sweetness coming from the alcohol, all go together create a beer that tastes much smaller then it is. I had a fellow brewer drinking some the other night and his comment was it was he expected it to be thicker. When I told him the OG and strength he couldn't believe it. By utilizing the variables you can do all kinds of things.
 
Does mash thickness affect anything besides wort fermentability? If it doesn't, you could just keep you water volume constant and change the temp. as someone said earlier. It must have some other effect, too.
 
1.3 qts/lb for me - I try to hit about 154 for the temp, give or take. I haven't found that a little more or little less mash water does anything drastic, so I don't worry about it too much. I'm also limited as my mash cooler is only 5 gal, so I've never made a dramically thinner mash.
 
mew said:
Does mash thickness affect anything besides wort fermentability? If it doesn't, you could just keep you water volume constant and change the temp. as someone said earlier. It must have some other effect, too.
Click to expand...

I think it is the case where temperature alone gets the job done but the two, thickness/thinness plus temperature works better. I find in my experience it make a difference and it is not hard for me to change the volume of water from batch to batch.

I actually have a little excel spread sheet that calculates the volume of liquid in a cylinder in cm and mm (decimals are much easier to use for this). So I just figure how much many quarts I want, run the calculations and it tells me how deep the water needs to be. Easy as pie! I will post it when I find it.
 
Excellent topic, as I have been pondering this lately. Unless I'm doing my blonde ale (with flaked rye) or an oatmeal stout, l tend to mash at 1.2-1.3 qts./lb. at ~153-155oF

When I first started doing AG, I did the first couple of batches at 1.1 qts./lb., but soon gravitated to my current method for no particular reason. Now I'm starting to rethink my method.
 
MBAA Practical Handbook for the Specialty Brewer Vol 1. said:
The thickness of the mash i.e., the ratio of grist to brewing liquor, has a similar albeit less dramatic effect on the extract yields and wort fermentability as temperature. A thicker mash protects more fragile enzymes (beta amylase and any prtoeolytic enzymes still present) and so increases fermentability and FAN. A thinner more watery mash results in higher extract and less fermentability.
Click to expand...


2:1(very thick) High Fermentability - Low Extract
2:1 - 3:1 Moderate Fermentability- Moderate Extract
3:1 - 4:1(thin) Low Fermentability - High Extract
 
This is something I need to work on. My mash volume right now really depends on how much volume I'm collecting and making my batch sparges equal in volume, so I don't take fermentability into account at all except with temperature. Except for decoction step mashes with separate beta/alpha rests, but we don't need to get into that since it hasn't been very consistent for me.
 
I have experimented doing IPAs and Pale Ales at diff mash temps. I have found that 1.25 qrts at 152 is just about perfect. Sometimes when I mash to high I really have to make sure my final gravity is where I want it, because it seems to take longer getting there. I have mashed at 149 through 157 and the 5 diff times I have brewed these styles I used WLP 001 and almost the same G and H bill. It is alot more important mashing at the right temp when doing AG that's for sure.
 
This is a great thread. (Thanks, Brewmaster, for your spreadsheet; and thanks, Dude, for hosting it.)

I'm still working on better control of water temps. I mash inside and boil outside (tried boiling on the hob, but I need more water than I can prepare there). Typically, once I've brought the water in, I've lost a degree or two. My mashes are usualy between 151ºF and 154ºF. Once in the MLT, they hold their temperatures well.

This seems to be a good margin, but I'd like to fine tune that better and start experimenting with stepped infusions.
 
I'm assuming that you increase the amount of sparge liquor for the thicker mashes. Maybe even stirring 170 degree water into the tun at mash out to thin the wort and make it less viscous?

Lately I've been using about 1.25 quarts per pound and varying the scarification rest temp between 150 to 154 degrees depending on the style.
 
Wow, OK so I have possibly found the reason my OG's have been so horrible lately. I am not sure where I got the info from but... I mash at 162 for 60min and mash out at 170. I primarily make EPA's and some darker ales but 99 out of 100 brews is an ale. If an OG listed in beersmith is supposed to be 1.052 (based on my grain bill) I will end up getting 1.040 or some other shoddy (low) OG which is becoming very frustrating. My mash PH is consistently 5.3 in the mash and the run off is close at 5.4-5.5.

Is 162 way to hot to mash with? I also totally eyeball the water added with the grist. It is usually 3-4 inches above the grist. I always thought the water to grist was to make sure you didn't add too little. I never expected that I could be adding too Much! The fly sparge takes me about 20-45min (depending on how many gallons I'm brewing) at 170. I usually only brew 5g at a time but recently I have been doing some 10's.

I am looking for some great literature that might explain the science behind why the level of water is important, what it does to the grist, and how I create achieve certain things by changing this up. Any help would be Greatly appreciated.
 
BrewBeer4fun said:
Wow, OK so I have possibly found the reason my OG's have been so horrible lately. I am not sure where I got the info from but... I mash at 162 for 60min and mash out at 170. I primarily make EPA's and some darker ales but 99 out of 100 brews is an ale. If an OG listed in beersmith is supposed to be 1.052 (based on my grain bill) I will end up getting 1.040 or some other shoddy (low) OG which is becoming very frustrating. My mash PH is consistently 5.3 in the mash and the run off is close at 5.4-5.5.

Is 162 way to hot to mash with? I also totally eyeball the water added with the grist. It is usually 3-4 inches above the grist. I always thought the water to grist was to make sure you didn't add too little. I never expected that I could be adding too Much! The fly sparge takes me about 20-45min (depending on how many gallons I'm brewing) at 170. I usually only brew 5g at a time but recently I have been doing some 10's.

I am looking for some great literature that might explain the science behind why the level of water is important, what it does to the grist, and how I create achieve certain things by changing this up. Any help would be Greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

Is 162 the temp of the mash or the strike water? a mash at 162 is too high. most mashes are between 148-157
 
I have experimented with this on dozens of batches. My conclusion is that mash ration makes virtually no detectable difference in the finished beer.
 
Denny said:
I have experimented with this on dozens of batches. My conclusion is that mash ration makes virtually no detectable difference in the finished beer.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Once upon a time I worried about this, as you can tell from the OP, but I gave it up for Lent. I don't do starch tests, I don't do much in the way of rechecking mash temp. I guess I am just getting rather casual with all of this mash stuff, but after 30 years of brewing I suppose I am entitled! :fro:
 
I went back and looked at my brewsheets and I do indeed have my strike water at 162 not the actual mash temps. They are usually about 156 for 60-75min.

I am still baffled as to why my OG's are often 8-10 points lower than they should be. Even though my PH is so good. And, for a 5gal batch, I usually use at least 13-15lb grain bill.

Any suggestions as to why my OG would be so low? It wasn't always, sometimes i hit it right on the mark. I tend to brew a gallon more than the recipe calls for so often I have to increase the grain bill to compensate, but 10points sucks. I did this recently to a extra pale ale, which I brew the most, when I used the first of my home grown cascade hops. I had to add 1lb of DME and some turbinado to compensate for the low gravity...
 
BrewBeer4fun said:
I went back and looked at my brewsheets and I do indeed have my strike water at 162 not the actual mash temps. They are usually about 156 for 60-75min.

I am still baffled as to why my OG's are often 8-10 points lower than they should be. Even though my PH is so good. And, for a 5gal batch, I usually use at least 13-15lb grain bill.

Any suggestions as to why my OG would be so low? It wasn't always, sometimes i hit it right on the mark. I tend to brew a gallon more than the recipe calls for so often I have to increase the grain bill to compensate, but 10points sucks. I did this recently to a extra pale ale, which I brew the most, when I used the first of my home grown cascade hops. I had to add 1lb of DME and some turbinado to compensate for the low gravity...
Click to expand...

What is your grain bill? Post it so we can see if your calculations are correct. I think that would be step one...
 
I know that in my system the lower the water to grain ration the worse my efficiency is. I have found the sweet spot in my system to be 1.5 to 1.75 quarts per pound. On a recent, very large beer I did .90 quarts per pound and my efficiency was around %60, where it is usually around %80.
 
does anyone ever just say, i've got 13 lbs of grain and i want to mash with 4 gal of strike to get 3gal of runnings(or whatever you loss rate is) just because its an easy whole number. this obviously works out to be about 1.23qt/per lb, but still ever thought of instead of say adding 3.57 gal to just add 4 gal?
 
iowabrew said:
does anyone ever just say, i've got 13 lbs of grain and i want to mash with 4 gal of strike to get 3gal of runnings(or whatever you loss rate is) just because its an easy whole number. this obviously works out to be about 1.23qt/per lb, but still ever thought of instead of say adding 3.57 gal to just add 4 gal?
Click to expand...

I measure my water with an empty milk jug, so I do this all the time. I try to get as close to 1.5 quarts per pound with a half gallon increments. Now I think I might try closest to 1.3 quarts per pound.
 
yeah see i usually use 1.1-1.3qts as a rule of thumb, but my HLT is setup in gallon marks and im not taking the time to mark 1/4 gallon, etc. so if my strike volume is say 3.75 i'm just rounding up to 4 or eyeing it and saying " eh close enough"
 
iowabrew said:
does anyone ever just say, i've got 13 lbs of grain and i want to mash with 4 gal of strike to get 3gal of runnings(or whatever you loss rate is) just because its an easy whole number. this obviously works out to be about 1.23qt/per lb, but still ever thought of instead of say adding 3.57 gal to just add 4 gal?
Click to expand...

Yep , I usually to round to the closest 1/4 gallon (quart). Close enough for me. Too much math makes my head hurt.:D
 
Mike (Tasty) McDole shared that he uses the same amount of strike water for every beer he brews. Also, he doesn't stir his mash during or after dough-in on his direct fire recirculating system.
 

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