Is this insane, or should I go for it?

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Am I off my rocker??

  • You're totally off your rocker for thinking about this.

  • Just make the ~4 gallon batch size and use oak cubes/spiral/stave/etc.

  • Suck it up and go for the 5.5-6 gallon batch size and use a 5 gallon/20L barrel to age it.

  • Make the ~4 gallon batch size, and use a small barrel to age part of it.


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Golddiggie

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I posted this up over on the Got Mead? forums, but it's been several hours without any postings (and only two votes), so I figured I'd post here too... :D

I've been thinking about doing this for a while now, and am about ready to pull the trigger. I made a 21% mead almost a year ago (it's still aging) that is the base for my Mocha Madness MkII batch. I'm about to add the flavor elements to that, but don't expect to go to bottles for at least 6-12 months. But that's another thread...

I'm giving serious thought to making a 25% ABV mead. I know the White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity yeast can go that far, if you treat it well (enough O2, pitching enough cells, etc.). I have the flasks and stirplate, as well as a pure O2 infusion system, and nutrient to add. So, technically, I could do it. I'm actually using that strain in a BIG [15.3% target] English barley wine that's fermenting in my basement (been there over a month and it's still going).

Points I have flipping thoughts on is batch size, and if I should make enough to age in an oak barrel, or not. If I don't go for the oak barrel aging, I'd make a 4 gallon batch. That would end up using about 21# of honey (already figured out the sugar percentage of it with my previous batch). IF I go with a 5.5 gallon batch (to have enough left to fill a 5 gallon oak barrel, and have a little left to top it off as needed), I'd end up using 30# of honey. I have 46# of honey on hand (balance of the 5 gallon bucket I picked up last year), so I'm ok there. I'd even have enough left for another batch of lower ABV mead. Either batch size, I'd start it off at a lower OG (less honey, reserving some of the water volume to get the honey to flow in better/easier), then add to it as it makes sense (if that can even be said in this context).

For the 4 gallon batch size, I'd end up using one of my 1/6 barrel sanke fermenters. For the 5.5-6 gallon size (need to see how much loss I should count on with a barrel) I'd end up using a 1/4 barrel sanke fermenter (could have a new pair coming via a trade).

So, am I totally off my rocker for thinking of doing this?? Should I just go for it, in the smaller batch size and use other methods for oaking it? Or should I suck it up and make the larger batch and get a barrel for when it's ready? It also appears that you can get smaller barrels, but I don't think anything under 5 gallon/20L would do a good job.

I will be getting two vials of WLP099 tomorrow, so I can make this at any point after that. :D
 
I voted for go for it but you are still off your rocker :)

At that OG is that enough yeast or would you need to make a starter or small mead to build enough yeast to make a run at all that honey?
 
Plan is to formulate a must to about 1.120, with a lower total volume than it will finish with. Then I'll do honey additions as it's fermenting away. Actually, will probably start with an OG of closer to 1.135-1.140. I can then either make three 3# additions, or break it down even more. I'll probably leave a week, or two, between the additions and see what it does. If the yeast eats through it all, I'll add more. If it doesn't, then I stop. So, the potential is there for mid 20's ABV, but it could also stop before it hits 20%. I am planning to degas and oxygenate before each honey addition. I'll probably add some nutrient at that time too. IF I hit my goal (hoping for north of 23%) then I'll be very happy. Either way, it won't go to bottle for 18-24 months from start. Probably not go to glass until it's at least 2-1/2 to 3 years old.

So then the other question is which batch size... Do I conserve honey for other batches, and make this one target of 4 gallons (starting volume)? Or do I go ahead and make it large enough to age in an oak barrel, with enough left to top it off as needed? I'm leaning more towards the smaller batch size, since that will leave me with about 25# of honey to make another batch, or two. :D

I need to check with White Labs to see if this yeast will do what I want or if it's destined to fail even before it starts.
 
I voted in both forums just so I could see the results from the other folks. I'm relatively new to mead, I've been making it for years but only recently joined these forums in an effort to perfect my skills. Of the dozen or so batches of mead I've made I don't think I've ever shot for anything higher than 15% and don't really see the need for anything higher. One bottle at 15% will get me pretty well toasted, two and I'm down for the count.

Of course there's always that drive to push the envelope out into new realms, I'm still exploring different yeast strains and mead styles. I imagine in several years I'll find myself wondering in what new direction I can go and high gravity will seriously interest me.

Given what Medsen Fey said about WLP099 pooping out around 18% makes me think you should try a test batch before barreling into this one, pun intended. Oh and the Feds be damned, if you can push this over 24% then huzzah and drink hearty, don't tread on a mazer.
 
I looked into doing a mead like this a while back. I was actually planning on just a 2 gallon batch myself and then adding some Cayenne & Cinnamon to secondary making a dragon’s breath brew. I ended up not doing it because the friend that wanted it changed his mind for something else. I say just go for the smaller batch because this will be a shot drink or sipper at best anyways.
 
I've done a few batches so far, well. 6-8 so far (depends on how you count one of them). My range, for ABV, has been 14-21%. I want to see just how far I can push WLP099 with nutrients, O2, degassing, and step feeding it honey. I'm also going to reach out to White Labs (again) to find out what they suggest, on top of what I already have planned. I'm already planning on grabbing two vials of the yeast (tomorrow) to use. My hope/plan is to mix up the starting must this weekend. I plan to keep that to the 1.120-1.130 range. Then add more honey (and maybe a little of the reserved water volume) as time, and the batch, progresses. I'll be keeping a log of this one, for certain. Due to the nature of what I'm making, I'll probably have the fermenting vessel resting in a plastic bin. Just in case it decides to foam over during the process (like during a degas step).

BTW, my first batch of traditional mead, made with regional wildflower honey and EC-1118 is damned great in a glass now. It was good at a year, and 18 months. But now that it's 2 years old, it's gotten even better. To the point that I'm thinking of making another 18% mead, with K1V this time.

I might have to have a gathering when the uber mead is ready to drink. Maybe include a waver form before I let people have some. :D "Warning, this mead will totally F you UP!. Enjoy" :rockin:

BTW, Arpolis, make a mead for YOU. I've been brewing/making what I want to drink. Everyone else can go beat meat for all I care. :ban:
 
Got the yeast yesterday, from the HBS in Cambridge, MA. They're the closest HBS that had it on hand, or even carries White Labs yeast. :mad: Made me remember why I don't like going there. Traffic getting there, and home again, was just nasty. Store is good, inside, but parking can be difficult (meter parking only). At least I was also able to pick up a few other things that I needed that there wasn't much point in buying online.

Now I just need to get the honey to be liquid, and mix this up. I'm trying to decide if I should make a starter and use one vial, or just use both of the vials I picked up. I'm also looking to make the 4 gallon total volume for this batch. That way I have enough honey left for at least one more batch, maybe two if I'm lucky.
 
Do it. I don´t vote because there is no option for make a 6 gallon batch and send me a bottle when is ready.
 
Do it. I don´t vote because there is no option for make a 6 gallon batch and send me a bottle when is ready.

Well, if you get your buttocks over to where I am sometime in the next 3-5 years, you could get a sample. :D

One vial in a starter. Don't want to start your journey by over-pitching.

Specific enough? ;)

That just means I'll either need to account for the additional volume (reducing the water addition) or be damned sure I cold crash it so that the sucker is COMPACT, decant and go... Oh vey. Looks like I'll be delayed a couple of days to do the starter. Although, according to the pitch calc, even with a 2L starter, I'll not be overpitching (on a stirplate of course). Just not sure if I'll use the second vial of yeast anytime in the next 6 months. I suppose, I could brew another MF BarleyWine when the current one moves to aging vessel.

:pipe:

BTW, PM me if you're serious about wanting some when it's ready. Might be able to come to an arrangement. ;) Or you can just get your buttocks into the northeast when it's ready. :D
 
If you aren't worried about the cost of making it, why wouldn't you do it?

You are curious and it's going to bug you until you try it.
 
I should also say that I am an idiot and under no circumstances should you listen to anything I say as having any merit to it whatsoever.
 
If you aren't worried about the cost of making it, why wouldn't you do it?

I have 46# of honey on hand. Would just like to make at least one more batch from that (two would be nicer). I do have time to decide as to what to age it on/in. Provided I don't short myself on the amount that will be available to age. I could have another larger fermenting vessel coming. Once I know on that front, I'll be better able to decide about how large a batch to make.

You are curious and it's going to bug you until you try it.

I tend to be very patient with my meads. I'm already going to set aside several bottles of the 2010 batch for additional years aging.

I know I'll be making this within a few days. It's more a matter of getting the yeast ready, and the honey into solution (initial amounts). Then just let it do what it needs to until it's ready to age. I already plan to age it for a year (or maybe more) before it goes to bottle.
 
BTW, I've also located some 10L (~2.6 gallon) oak barrels that might be usable for aging in. I'm also waiting to hear back from FHBS (Steelers77) to see if they can get anything in under 5 gallon sizes. With any luck, I'll have more options/choices when it comes to aging this batch. Luckily, I do have some time before I really need to think about that part. :D
 
Well, Steelers77 can only go as small as 5 gallon barrels (assuming 20L). I have found another couple of sources for new barrels in a range of sizes though. So, the decision of what size batch to make is not getting any easier.

4 gallons and age part in a 10L barrel, or start with 6 gallons and fill a 20L barrel (with enough to top either batch size off as needed). I'd probably go a bit more than 4 gallons for that batch size, just so that I have close to 4 come the end of fermentation. However long that's going to be. I'm already planning to ferment in the low 60's, so it could take it some time to get to the end.
 
I have had one oaked mead.. it was bleck. I spat it out. It wasnt over oaked, the honey and oak flavors just didnt meld like oak with a big burly red can.

But that being said, go for it! Id like to watch, its a world of differnece from my session type melomels and braggots I like
 
I have had one oaked mead.. it was bleck. I spat it out. It wasnt over oaked, the honey and oak flavors just didnt meld like oak with a big burly red can.

But that being said, go for it! Id like to watch, its a world of differnece from my session type melomels and braggots I like

That brings me back to just using the cubes (and other forms) of wood I have on hand, instead of a barrel. With the amount of honey I'll be using, I'd rather have a more controlled addition, that doesn't revolt people. I'd rather add more cubes to the batch than give it additional years for the addition to mellow out.
 
The cubes may be worth an experement, seeing as the whole batch is an experment either way.
Maybe a very very slight oaking would add a good bit of eathyness that would mesh or atleast not conflict with the wildflower honey.
My semi educated guess is your going to need alot of yeast nutrient and energizer too, likely double standard additions. I also have no experence with this yeast strain, only distillers yeast in making a "faux schnapps type liqueur" that came in a round 20% abv.
This batch most likely will be aging for 5+ years before it starts to taste less like rocket fuel, more like a mead liqueur.
If i weregoing to spend my money on such an experement I woul buy on of the big burly red wine kits that come with skins an oak and raise the OG with honey to what your looking for, and pitch that yeast strain. That executed well oaked and aged would be a joy to drink.
But it is your experement just be sure to keep us updated as I am pretty sure your well into uncharted territory, I'm curious how the yeast will behave at this high of an abv. What kind of esters or other by products they make.
I'll be watching closely with a bowl of popcorn and a homebrew
 
I have energizer and some straight nutrient blend (plus some DAP). Need to get to the LHBS today to see if they have more of the nutrient blend (bought a 1# bag at the old LHBS I used to go to). I'm already planning on using about 3-5x the normal amount of nutrients with this batch (per White Labs page) and to oxygenate the living snot out of it. With the lower starting gravity, and ramping it up as it goes, I should be able to push the limits of the strain. Also fermenting on the cooler side should stress the yeast less, giving a better end product.

I like my mead to finish on the sweet side of things. IMO/IME, gives a better tasting product, that you actually enjoy drinking. After two years, my original batches are really coming into their own. With those being 18% (the ones I've been drinking at least) I'm expecting this batch to be at least 2-3 years before bottle, and then possibly another few years before going to glass. I do have a 21% mead that will be getting flavor additions soon, and will probably be another year before it goes to bottle.

I used 1.5oz of oak in a 3 gallon amount of mead, for 4-6 weeks before. Could barely taste the oak earlier, but it's faded pretty much now. I'll probably double the dosage this time. More like 1oz/gallon, and for longer. With the longer aging time, I'd rather oak it a bit heavier and let it be on target in the 4-6 year age range, before it starts to fade away.

Yeah, this is going to be a long time in process batch. :D
 
Yeah, this is going to be a long time in process batch. :D

I'd be curious to know WHEN this becomes drinkable. I know it will take a while, but if you can, let us know how long it takes before it tastes good...

Good luck!
 
I plan on posting updates, either in this thread, or a new one. Since I've already blocked off 2-3 years from pitch to bottling, I'm not too concerned. I know the honey is great, it's more a matter of how far I can push the yeast. I also know that the yeast strain isn't all that flocculant, so it will need time to settle out. That will be the lion share of the time before it goes to aging with oak. I'm also considering (since I have it on hand) using either of two different toasted maple, or cherry wood for aging (instead of oak). Also keep in mind, the oak I have on hand (and like to use) is medium toast Hungarian oak. Rather different from the American and French versions (found in most barrels).
 

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