So... how bad ARE preservatives, exactly?

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brew78

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'Ello again

My first batch of cider turned out pretty good, but its about gone and its time to be making more.

I picked up some cider at the store a few days back. I'd read the label and saw "Pasteurized" and "100% Juice" on the jugs so figured it was ok.

Dumped em into the carboy (with 2 lbs of honey), added the 1/4 tsp of pectic enzyme, let it sit overnight.. marveled at the large sludgy layer at the bottom of the carboy the next day, took a gravity reading, and added some yeast.

Its been a couple days, and it hasn't really started to bubble yet. I took a closer look at the jugs and I now see in black print (against the dark background, almost everything else was white print) that there's some potassium sorbate added to preserve freshness.

Is this batch of cider doomed? Should I add some more yeast and hope for the best? Dump it since its been out for a few days and there's probably bacteria growing? Or is it perfectly ok and I just need to be more patient?

The room that the carboy is in isn't exactly toasty, either.. maybe low-mid 60's, if that's a factor.

Thanks for any info!
 
Ah, bummer- potassium sorbate inhibits the reproduction of yeast, so I'm sorry to inform you that this batch is a bust. I did the same thing with my first attempted batch of cider. I'd suggest looking for apple juice or cider that just uses ascorbic acid (vitamin C) as a preservative.

Graham
 
poopsticks.

Its just a bad time of year, I guess. I live in an area with many apple orchards, and the cider I used to make my initial batch was bought at a farm stand, fresh pressed. I think some of the character was from natural bacteria, its really mellowed out as its aged.

Is there anything specifically toxic about the bacteria that might be potassium sorbate resistant, or would this batch just not taste very good?
 
heh, in a weird coincidence, it just had its first bubble. I can see some tiny bubbles seeping up from the sludge layer at the bottom, too. Maybe its not over yet
 
I've done batches of cider containing potassium sorbate on numerous occasions without any problems. With enough yeast, it should be fine. Sodium benzoate, on the other hand, will prevent fermentation outright.
 
I havent had expiriance but I have read that with a healthey yeast pitch you should be fine
 
I havent had expiriance but I have read that with a healthey yeast pitch you should be fine

+1 I think repitching with a BIG starter is really the only way to go in this case. Sorbate inhibits reproduction but NOT activity; so pitch in enough active yeast & it should ferment well enough, though you might add a dose of yeast nutrient/energizer to help 'em out. Regards, GF.
 
Gratus/others - I agree - repitch yeast starter or two hydrated dry yeast packs. Sorbate can be overcome, but you need a lot of yeast in there. Don't toss it, learn form it and try to fix it. Dry yeast is cheap.

IMO
 
Good info, thanks! I stopped at the brew store earlier in the week to get some yeast for the cider, as well as some to have on hand. I like the convenience of the already-sterile nutrition packs of the Wyeast, but apparently they don't make Nottingham. I pitched the cider with American Ale yeast since its similar, but I do also have a pack of dry Nottingham and a pack of Red Star champagne yeast.

Is it important to have the same yeast strain? I don't see why it would be.. Do you think there would be an issue if I were to brew up a yeast culture of the Nottingham and dump it in there with the American Ale?

And what would be the best method of doing so, actually? I'd guess boiled water, sugar of some kind, letting it cool, adding the yeast, covering, letting it do its thing for awhile. How big of a culture should I make? Its 4 gallons of cider with the honey; I'd planned on topping off with a 5th gallon when it was done to prime/sweeten, then pasteurize the bottles so they don't detonate a week or two later.
 
You want to try to stay with the same strain - the yeast strains will compete for dominiance and who will rule the fermenter. However, go with what you have.

I think with your choices the nottingham is the best addition, and closest to to the ale yeast. Just hydrate the nottingham in <100F water until you see it is good and foaming, then pitch.

If you want to make a starter you can use 2 cups boiled water - to sterilize, and sugar (maybe 1/4-1/2 a cup). Put tsp of yeast nutrient in there and cool to 75 +/- 5F. Have the nottingham room temp and foaming and pitch into the 2 cup starter. Let it sit about 4-6 hours, and then pitch it when it is foaming well. This will give an actively fermenting culture to the carboy. If you are patient, wait about 8 hours or until the foaming subsides, and you will have stepped up your viable yyeast production. Then pitch.


http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

In your case you can use sugar not DME, becuase that is what your fermentanables are.
 
Its not a huge deal to take a trip to the brew store again, so I might just pick up another American Ale pack and let it grow this evening, pitching before bed.

I probably won't use DME, since the reason I'm making cider instead of beer is an unfortunate recent celiac diagnosis. (Talked to the doc right after bottling a batch of Irish ale, too. :mad:) I plan on working on some cider recipes, maybe try a batch of wine before tackling sorghum. I was pretty happy to see a gluten-free subforum here :)

Thanks again for the info and suggestions!
 
If you can grab american ale and grow it a bit, I say do that. It won't hurt anything per se, but it defeats some of the purpose of double pitching if you use two difference yeasts (nottingham).

I wouldn't use DME either, no need. Sucrose to a gravity of about 1.040 is perfect.

Sucks about that gluten free business. Good for you though, there is a market of buyers out there for it and my LHBS is starting to carry the stuff, I am sure yours will too. Or you can rely on the good old interweb.

While you are there to get the ale yeast, grab some yeast nutrient and yeast energizer. Cheap, and will help out. Nutrient to your starter (I also use it every time I do a cider (1tsp-5gals)) energizer to the stuck fermentation.

Good luck!
 
+1 I think repitching with a BIG starter is really the only way to go in this case. Sorbate inhibits reproduction but NOT activity; so pitch in enough active yeast & it should ferment well enough, though you might add a dose of yeast nutrient/energizer to help 'em out. Regards, GF.

This will work to get it going...I am bummed ran into the same issue it has steadily dropped a few points but I will likely toss it out. I have since made a second batch of cider that has went to bottles and has completed conditioning. (Just to give you an Idea how long it's been fermenting.) If I don't toss my Mrs. might like the sweet taste, LOL. I do have a ton of champange bottles and throw them in the cellar.

Lesson learned ...READ the label THEN, Read it again.
GOOD LUCK!
 
Wow, this cider's been going longer than I thought..!

Now that its autumn and fresh cider is abundant, I picked up 5 lbs of local honey and am trying to decide what recipe to go with.

Also came time to see whats the deal with this last cider. It always just smelled really sweet so I figured it was dead. I figured wrong.

Just took a hydrometer reading, and it dropped from its original 1.051 to its current 1.002. According to calculations that's almost 6.5%. Given the issues with the preservatives, I don't know if its worth trying to carbonate.

I mean, I do have a carbonator, but thats for water and it says not to use anything *but* water. Maybe I can get away with it just this once though. Carbonate a liter at a time, bottle them, let em sit for awhile longer..

Here's the thing though. Its been sitting for quite some time, its completely flat, and it tastes pretty sour. As I understand it, "young" ciders are often quite sour, but I'm not sure if this one can be considered young anymore. I guess my question is, how do you tell if you've made 5 gallons of very mild cyzer vinegar?
 
There is a difference between sour and vinegar - which is it?

I don't touch my ciders for 4-6 months, Just pressed about 15 gallons today!
 
I talked to the guy at the brew store and he pointed out that the acid in vinegar is very volatile, which is to say its very potent smelling. This stuff smells very sweet and of apples, it just tastes really sour. So, its apparently just really high in acid and needs to be sweetened, but otherwise is fine.

I bought an extra gallon of cider at the local farm stand and put it in with the rest of the cider I'm prepping with the pectic and campden. Tomorrow I'll draw off a gallon, maybe add some extra sugar, and mix it in. I might use my carbonator to add some bubbles, haven't decided yet.
 
vinegar will only get worse - likely you just have young cider and it just needs time to mellow.
 
I wish I would have seen this thred a week ago. I picked up 5 gallons of fresh cider at an orchard, only to discover potassium sorbate on the label when I got home. Gave away some, drank some, froze the rest. Oh well at least it was relatively cheap and still enjoyed. Got a line on another local orchard that will squeeze fresh into your own bucket for next time.
 
i know this is an old thread, but just wanted to post to say that pretty much the same thing happened to me. bought some local, pasteurized cider and just assumed (ugh, i know..) that it was preservative free. it wasn't until i got all 5 gallons in the carboy and was tossing the jugs that i noticed.. "potassium sorbate".. i still pitched the yeast anyway (white labs english cider), but without a starter. it's a little chilly in my house, so it took a few days to get going, but it actually DID get going. it was churning pretty good a few days ago, but started to die down. so, i got another vial of the white labs cider yeast & made a starter with organic non-preservative apple juice. i actually made the started about 1/5th cider with potassium sorbate, so the yeast wouldn't be in for too big a shock. i let it go for a few days, and just added it to the carboy. before i added it, i took a reading.. 1.01! (i didn't get to take a SG reading b/c i was without hydrometer - had just broken my 2nd one - but i imagine it was somewhere around 1.05) i took a little taste, as well... it was pretty tart, but not too bad. it didn't taste wrong, necessarily, but i definitely wouldn't want a whole glass at this point. but, i'm thinking it might work out after all! before i found this thread, i was just going to toss the whole thing.. so thanks!
 
A lot of people think preservatives are 100% effective way to prevent fermentation, but it simply isn't true. Look at all the skeeter pee that has been made thousands of times using "real-lemon" which has sodium benzoate, sodium metabisulfite, and sodium sulfate, all preservatives. The trick when you discover preservatives in your brew is to get the yeast to take hold. Here is how I did it with a recent batch of skeeter pee:


If you have done any reading about skeeter pee you will quickly realize the hardest part about making it is getting it to start. If you make a typical starter or simply pitch the dry yeast directly in to the must the acids from the lemon and the preservatives (sodium benzoate, sodium metabisulfite, and sodium sulfate) slow down the yeast and it can take a week or better before it really starts to take off.

Another solution that is common practice among skeeter pee makers is to simply make the skeeter pee or SP on top of the lees from a previous batch of wine. This is highly effective, however has two drawbacks, first it means you can only make SP when you have just finished another wine or cider, and two if the "starter wine" had any color to it (like a red) those colors can muddy the SP.

I have come up with a third solution that is highly effective and gets the SP going within about 48-72 hours.

After I have mixed my lemon, water, and sugar to create the SP must I sanitize a clear beer bottle and then use it as a container to make a starter with 4 oz of apple juice (I use a 4oz juice box, also I have found yeast seam to really do well in apple juice) and the yeast I am using. I fit the bottle with an air lock and let it sit for about an hour or two, watching for activity. When I have vigorous bubbling I add about 4oz of my SP mix and weight until it starts vigorously bubbling again (usually takes about 6-8 hours) I then add 4 more ounces of SP and once again give it about 6-8 hours. At this point my beer bottle is full, and quite foamy at the top from the activity. I then pour 1/2 of my starter in to the SP must, give the jug a quick swirl and refill the starter bottle with more SP liquid. Again it takes about 6-8 hours for the starter to start bubbling vigorously again and when I get to that point I repeat the previous step only I pour 2/3 of the starter in to the must, again give the must a swirl, replace the liquid in the starter with more SP, and repeat. I continue this process until my jug of skeeter pee starts bubbling on its own, at which point I dump the entire starter into the jug and top it off. I used this technique and made a starter two mornings ago and by this morning only 48 hours later my SP was bubbling away on its own. I have found this technique works extremely well and I believe it minimizes the stress on the yeast so I figured I would share.

if you can get the yeast to take hold the preservatives become irrelevant and the brew will ferment out all the way, the yeast will even over come the preservative and start to reproduce. Preservatives are kind of like a wall around a city, and the yeast are kind of like an invasion force. Good in the short term or with a minimal attack but not good for long term or with a large invasion.

The reason I say this is when sorbate is used on a dry wine to back sweeten the number of yeast is so minimal that the "wall" can easily hold off the attack of the yeast. However with a larger inoculation those preservatives don't stand a chance. As I said above Skeeter pee calls for "real lemon" which has preservatives in it and there is a thread on this forum about fermenting mountain due which also has preservatives in it. In both cases a basic starter and time is all that was needed for the yeast to overcome the preservatives. You can take any juice with a preservative in it and leave it on the counter with the lid off and eventually it will start to mold. (potassium sorbate inhibits both yeast and mold from reproducing)

Really preservatives just slow things down. If they completely protected foods from yeast and mold we would not need to put food items with preservatives in them in the fridge after they have been opened. But because the preservatives can not hold off all the attacks of microbes every time the lid is removed we keep opened containers in the fridge so that the cold will slow down microbe growth. Even then with the preservatives and the cold if you leave something in the fridge to long it will begin to ferment or grow mold.
 
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