oxidation?

What happens to a beer when it becomes oxidized?

I transfered a ale from primary to secondary after 2+ weeks, my seconday was a plastic bucket, and there was no airlock activity after transfer.

I waited 2 weeks in secondary and now that I am getting ready to bottle, the beer is alot darker than when I did the first transfer.

If it sat with mainly oxygen, is this what happens? It also smells alot different than at transfer.

Thanks

I should note that this was a light ale:

The recipe was
3.3lbs Gold LME
3lbs Clover Honey
8 oz Carapils (Steeping grains)
1 oz Glacier hops
1 oz Argentinian Cascade

It was a very nice golden brown when I transfered and now it is as dark as a pale ale I made last time.

It may be darker because as it cleared, the yeast (which is light colored) dropped out. Also, if you take a sample in a glass, it may be much lighter than it looks in the pail.

Oxidation is more about taste in beer- it'll taste stale, or like wet cardboard.

YooperBrew said:

it'll taste stale, or like wet cardboard.

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Have you ever tasted wet cardboard? LOL

70 to 75% of taste comes from smell and I have smelled wet cardboard so I can imagine.

The beer was very clear, there was absolutely nothing floating in the pail. When I transfered to secondary though I could smell the honey and it was very pleasant. A nice sweet honey smell.

Now though it smells off, very much like molasses instead of honey. I bottled it anyway and will give it a try it halloween night (which is almost 4 weeks).

ANd oxydation takes several months to develop...in the bottle or the keg...most of the time our beer is long been consumed before the oxydation would occur...

trainfever said:

Have you ever tasted wet cardboard? LOL

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no, but if you heavily oxidize a beer, you'll know the 'taste' of oxidation about .5 seconds after the beer clears your tongue.

its a sad thing to taste

How much oxygen are we talking about here? I just transfered from my primary to secondary with no splashing at all but it seemed there were some bubbles in the line. Pretty sure it would have been co2 though but I could not purge my secondary bottle because I am a n00b and can't afford to buy the proper equipment at this moment. So I'm pretty sure that there is a nice layer of oxygen on top of my freshly transfered beer. Is this a bad thing or will it clear soon? Fermentation seemed pretty much over after 10 days as the beer was clearing nicely. Tasted mighty darn fine if I do say so myself

In most of our home brew processes, our beer will be subjected to oxygen a number of times. The risk of off-flavours depends on when the oxygen is encountered, and the quantity of oxygen involved.

When racking, your beer has been subjected to oxygen. It has been oxidized. However, the amount is minimal and you will not perceive any affects for a while.

The real danger of oxidation has to do with de-stabilizing your beer. Once subjected to oxidation, the shelf life of your beer is diminished. The beer will degrade with time. The real concern for homebrewers though is whether the degradation of the beer will occur before it is consumed.

In your case however, rdwhahb

russb123 said:

I waited 2 weeks in secondary and now that I am getting ready to bottle, the beer is alot darker than when I did the first transfer.

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When it is first transfered isn't there sediment and yeast floating around that reflect light and make the beer appear lighter? I think it looks darker once all this settles?

schweaty said:

How much oxygen are we talking about here? I just transfered from my primary to secondary with no splashing at all but it seemed there were some bubbles in the line. Pretty sure it would have been co2 though but I could not purge my secondary bottle because I am a n00b and can't afford to buy the proper equipment at this moment. So I'm pretty sure that there is a nice layer of oxygen on top of my freshly transfered beer. Is this a bad thing or will it clear soon? Fermentation seemed pretty much over after 10 days as the beer was clearing nicely. Tasted mighty darn fine if I do say so myself

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It takes several PPM's of O2 to oxydize your beer, a LOT more than in the normal course of brewing and even making the normal mistakes that we make in the course of racking, and bottling...

Someone on BasicBrewing radio commented once that it would be have to be equal to taking your aeration stone/O2 bottle and pumping 2-3 minutes of O2 into the finished beer, before you reach the potential for oxydation...

So, it's not something you have to worry too much about, especially if you make a mistake or something...That doesn't mean you don't take every reasonable precaution...It means you don't stress out if you get a few bubbles in your siphon...or things like that...

Besides Oxydation usually takes a couple months to show up...and most of us drink our homebrew relatively quickly, so even if the POTENTIAL was there becasue of something we did, we may never even notice it...

On top of what Revvy said, oxidation reactions proceed at a very slow rate below 80*F. (Perhaps why it takes months to develop even if the beer is exposed to adequate amounts of air)

JoMarky said:

On top of what Revvy said, oxidation reactions proceed at a very slow rate below 80*F. (Perhaps why it takes months to develop even if the beer is exposed to adequate amounts of air)

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Oh really? That's good to know. I never heard that...another bit of info to add my "Arsenal of RDWHAHB!"

Thanks!

I've intentionally oxidized bottles of beer and I can tell you, the effect is unmistakable...they poured w/ a massive amount of foam and had a really nasty aroma (stale and slightly rancid) with a flavor to match. Chewing on cardboard that was pulled from a dumpster is a good description All were immediate drain pours.

I racked about half a 5 gallon batch once with a hop leaf stuck in the cane and it aerated the bejeebus out of it and it still came out fine.

Hypothetically what could cause the color change if it is not oxidation?

In the midwest catalog they have a color chart and this Honey Bee Ale is on the very far end of the light side. It should be a very light golden brown, but it is instead as dark as any amber ale right now.

was your primary a plastic bucket or a carboy? if you went from a carboy to a plastic bucket well..that would explain the color change.

russb123 said:

Hypothetically what could cause the color change if it is not oxidation?

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I'm not sure oxidation causes beer to darken? Like's been before said oxidation won't rear its ugly head 'till later. Beer looks different in each vessel, from pails to 6.5g carboys to 5gallon carboys to bottles. The only way to judge the real color is to look at it in a glass.

The only thing i've read that will darken beer is long lagering, but that is normal and not a sign of anything bad.

Until the beer is sitting in a glass AFTER it has carbed and conditioned for the 3 weeks at 70 minimum, you will not get a true measure of it's color, or of it's taste, or of it's smell....

If you are looking at it thorugh the glass or plastic walls of a carboy, you are dealing with refraction, if you are judging it looking down in a bucket, you aren't getting an accurate picture of the color of your beer either.....

Your beer goes on a long journey from the stove til it's in your glass, there are changes in tastes, colors and smells that happen during the 2 months or so the beer is doing what it's doing. And it's all perfectly normal.

More than likely there is absolutely no problems whatsoever with your beer....the problem is with the brewer...you have a mental illness known as n00bitus...it is the tendencey to obsess, and worry over every minutia of the process, while at the same time being totally ignorant of the smells, tastes, colors, of the process...It is the tendency to think that the beer is a weak little infant when in reality it is a process that has been going on for 2000 plus years....the yeasts know what they are doing...as long as you provided them a nice office, and let them do their jobs...

In other words, leave your stuff alone, go brew another batch and let this one sit in the secondary or the bottles for the 3+weeks you need...
then enjoy the fruits of your labor...

Revvy thats a lot of posts without seeing "hot chick with handgun"!

Brewno said:

When it is first transfered isn't there sediment and yeast floating around that reflect light and make the beer appear lighter? I think it looks darker once all this settles?

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Yes, that is correct. Extract beers tend to be darker than their commercial counterparts as well as the AG versions, because the extract darkens during the boil. You can do some things to keep the color light- use the lightest extract you can find (I like extra light DME), and add the extract late in the boil with only 15 minutes left- but generallly extract beers are darker than most people are used to. It doesn't affect the taste, though, so don't worry!

In the carboy, there is still yeast in suspension, and as the beer clears and it drops out, the beer actually appears darker. When you take out a sample, though, it will look lighter. The reason is actually simple, when you think about it- you're looking at 5 gallons of beer in a carboy. It seems really dark. When you put a little in a glass, light goes through it, and it'll be lighter than it appeared in the carboy.

bearkluttz said:

Revvy thats a lot of posts without seeing "hot chick with handgun"!

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Yeah well the mods complained about nippelege on their sheer tops so I had to do some photoshopping...

Here is the new and improved hot chick with gun and electrical tape over nipple...let's see if the mods ok it....

Hey, is that a gun in her hand or is she just real happy to see me? LOL