"Brewing Classic Styles" - walk me though this recipe (long)

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Grinder12000

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I'm trying to learn and work things out and am reading Brewing Classic Styles by Zainasheff/Palmer.

Can someone answer some PROBABLY obvious questions from a newbie who is fascinated but confused?

Walking through the page 37 example

1. Estimate yield of steeping grains 1.25 pounds of crystal malt in 3 gallons of water Assuming 70% yield equates to . . .

(1???) where did this figure come from?

1.25* 24ppg (I assume this is common knowledge for crystal malt?)/3 gal = 10 gravity points or 1.010 - so far so good. Subtract 10 points from boil gravity 55-10=45

2. Calc the amount of extract to use in boil
From the gravity equation 45 / 12 = 3.75 (this is just an easier way to do it - I understand the actual calculation.

So - at this point if we were all done (which we are not). Would I use 3.75 pounds of extract in the partial boil? and would I add that all at once?

I understand the rest and actually understand it MUCH better now that I typed it out.

So the BIG question is this

Where did the "Assuming 70% yield" come from and if I'm using 3.75 pounds of extract in a partial boil - do I just dump it all in at once in the beginning of the boil or as I had read use 1/2 of it and put the rest in near the end of the boil!

Sorry for being long winded but - this is SERIOUSLY fascinating me.

rod
 
Walking through the page 37 example

1. Estimate yield of steeping grains 1.25 pounds of crystal malt in 3 gallons of water Assuming 70% yield equates to . . .

(1???) where did this figure come from?
1.25* 24ppg (I assume this is common knowledge for crystal malt?)/3 gal = 10 gravity points or 1.010 - so far so good.

Most crystal malts are in the low 30's range for potential extract; he's likely using 34ppg and assuming (based on lots of experience) that he'll get 70% of that. 34 * 70% = 24


EDIT: removed answer to the partial boil question; answered better in following posts
 
I'm trying to learn and work things out and am reading Brewing Classic Styles by Zainasheff/Palmer.

Can someone answer some PROBABLY obvious questions from a newbie who is fascinated but confused?

Walking through the page 37 example

1. Estimate yield of steeping grains 1.25 pounds of crystal malt in 3 gallons of water Assuming 70% yield equates to . . .

(1???) where did this figure come from?

That's an average efficiency figure. It's what Jamil usually gets. Your brewhouse efficiency will probably vary, and it's based on many factors----grain crush, water profile, mash tun design, etc. For instance, I usually get 80+%. You won't know what your efficiency is until you do a handful of batches and average it out based on what your original gravity numbers are. So for the time being, assume 70%, and if your gravity numbers are higher or lower than expected, you can adjust your recipes next time by assuming this new efficiency figure. If I were you I'd take fastidious notes and get brewing software like Beertools, Promash (what I use), or Beersmith.

1.25* 24ppg (I assume this is common knowledge for crystal malt?)/3 gal = 10 gravity points or 1.010 - so far so good. Subtract 10 points from boil gravity 55-10=45

2. Calc the amount of extract to use in boil
From the gravity equation 45 / 12 = 3.75 (this is just an easier way to do it - I understand the actual calculation.

So - at this point if we were all done (which we are not). Would I use 3.75 pounds of extract in the partial boil? and would I add that all at once?

You'd add whatever extract you need to add around 15 minutes from the end of your boil. This will reduce caramelization in the kettle which can darken your beer.
 
Only thing is the recipes in the book all assume a full boil which means there would no need to do late extract additions.

If you have to do a partial boil, you'll want to try to boil with your target pre-boil gravity to get the proper hop utilization, then add the rest of the extract in the last 10 or 15 minutes.

According to Jamil, doing a full boil makes a huge improvement in extract brewed beers.

Linc
 
Partial boil - he(they say) - they have an entire section on partial boils.

Boil all of your hops in 1/2 of your total malt extract, in half the recipe volume, add the remaining extract at the end of the boil to pasteurize it, then dilute to the final recipe volume in the fermenter.

So - in ENGLISH with a 3 gallon boil

Boil ALL of your hops in the 3 gallons but use ONLY 1/2 the extract - then add the remainder near the end.

He then says just use ALL the steeping grains at once - it's not IDEAL but it's practical.

same with Hops - just use the recipe and don't worry about the partial boil.

HOWEVER - I understand what you are saying about the target boil gravity. Just let me digest things for a couple brews (small steps and going from a kit to this is a big one).

thanks
 
One more question

In the example recipe on pages 36-37

the 3 gallon boil will consist of
1.25 lb of steeping grains
0.50 lb of Munich LME
3.25 lbs of light LME

This means that there is still 6.5lbs of light LME left over correct? That goes in at the end of the boil.

I think I'm making THIS harder then it looks but I want to make sure (first time worries).
 
If a late extract addition is the source of your confusion, just don't do it. It's not going to kill your beer to put all the extract in at the beginning, even with a partial boil.
 
Download a free trial of beersmith, throw your recipe in there and it will calculate your late extract, steeping amounts etc. I've never used Beersmith for that but I know it will do it. PLus it is a great way to check yourself, keep notes and it will really help later on if you decide to try PM or AG.

Linc
 
...Walking through the page 37 example

1. Estimate yield of steeping grains 1.25 pounds of crystal malt in 3 gallons of water Assuming 70% yield equates to . . .

(1???) where did this figure come from?
On page 40 under the Malts section he explains that "The estimated yield for steeping of specialty grains is assumed to be the same as the mashing yield, 70 percent."
Yes, it's odd that he gave an example before his reasoning.

1.25* 24ppg (I assume this is common knowledge for crystal malt?)
I'm surprised they did not include a table similar to this in the book. But you can find similar tables around the internet. That table doesn't list Crystal 15L but it should be close to 35 ppg. 35 x 70% = 24.5.
They do say in the book on page 40 under the Malts section that you should get the maximum yield from the malt analysis sheet for the malt in question. They assume a 70% yield of the maximum yield.
 
Also, I haven't been able to match their Pre-boil gravities with their grain bills (extract bills?;)). I'm not even talking about trying to figure out partial boils, just the full boil 7 gallon pre-boil recipes.

Using their example (and I checked other recipes in the book too) on pages 36-37, the Pre-boil gravity is 1.055 with:
Light LME: 9.75 lbs.
Munich LME: 0.5 lbs

Crystal 15L: 1 lb.
Crystal 40L: 0.25 lb.

From LME: 10.25 lbs. X 36 ppg / 7 gal (pre-boil volume) = 52.7
From specialty grains at 70% (24ppg): 1.25 lb. X 24 ppg / 7 gal = 4.3
Total = ~57 (1.057)

I haven't found a recipe yet that isn't off by at least 1.5 gravity points. The calc always seems higher than their given pre-boil gravity.

What am I doing wrong? I haven't tried any brewing software with these recipes yet though (maybe it's just my poor math skills?).

EDIT: Ok, I was wrong, not all recipes are off. I just tried the first 3 and the the first 2 were correct but the 3rd one was 0.7 gravity point off. Recipes deeper in the book are off even further.
 
weren't the recipes in the book started as AG? then they converted the recipes to extract? I think that would throw off the recipes by a bit.

B
 
One or two gravity points aren't going to matter either direction. In the end, all recipes are a guideline and everyone's system is different. You might need to make minor adjustments on ingredients due to system issues.

When's the last time you accurately measured LME to the nearest 0.05 lb? I wouldn't worry about any minor discrepancy between the extract and all-grain recipes. I have the book and love it, but I have to tweak every recipe due to size and efficiency issues. In the end it's the brewer that makes great beer, not the recipe.
 
Also, I haven't been able to match their Pre-boil gravities with their grain bills (extract bills?;)).

From specialty grains at 70% (24ppg)

The problem with your calculation is that you're assuming all specialty malts provide the same amount of extract potential. That is far from reality. You would need to take into account the potential for each individual type of grain or extract, as they can all have different values. You don't get the same amount of extracted sugar from black patent as you do from crystal 40.

I hope that helps.

JZ
 
The problem with your calculation is that you're assuming all specialty malts provide the same amount of extract potential. That is far from reality. You would need to take into account the potential for each individual type of grain or extract, as they can all have different values. You don't get the same amount of extracted sugar from black patent as you do from crystal 40.

I hope that helps.

JZ

Uh-oh, get ready for the barrage of man love and PM's.

'bout time you joined a real hombrewing forum, JZ. :D
 
Not humbled. Thankfull that the book in questions author took the time to respond.


And as JZ said the extract potential for diff brands of extract vary.

Just like if you switch out different malts pils or pale or what have you. All are just different enough to cause different gravities ie; briess vs rahr vs crisp yadda yadda.
 
True true! AS a relative newbie I just take one tweak at a time.

Seems every batch I wish I would have some newly learned knowledge for the LAST batch!
 
The problem with your calculation is that you're assuming all specialty malts provide the same amount of extract potential. That is far from reality. You would need to take into account the potential for each individual type of grain or extract, as they can all have different values. You don't get the same amount of extracted sugar from black patent as you do from crystal 40.

I hope that helps.

JZ
It does help. However, I didn't make the assumption that all specialty malts provide the same extract potential. In my earlier post in this thread I even pointed out there are tables of just such values. I have no idea which values you used, so I was just using the value that came from the book (page 37) where it was assumed a 70% yield and the given value was 24ppg. And on page 40 it states the baseline value for LME used in the book is 36ppg.

I wasn't trying to discredit anyone (or the book, I think it's great!). I just can't get the numbers to align with calcs. Like you said, it comes down to the values used for the specialty malts (except in the case where there are none :confused:) and those values that were used in the book are not disclosed.

In any case, it's not preventing me from trying the great recipes in the book.

Thanks for taking the time to register and reply to my questions. :)
 
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