Whirlpool in Electric Kettle?

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Quaffer

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I am planning an electric BK using the Bayou 62 quart SS stockpot:

... and a Camco #02963 5500W 240V Ripp Element installed in its sidewall. I hope to whirlpool in the BK for a few minutes, then pump the wort through my CFC. The pump will suck wort from a hooked dip tube near the BK wall. I saw somewhere, I think it was in Kal's writeup for his brewery, that whirlpooling may not work so good in a BK with a heater element because the element interferes with the break pile, or perhaps the whirlpool itself. Has someone got experience with this?

Would it work to install the element a few inches from the bottom so that it will clear the break pile, or will this not heat the wort below it? Any insight you can share is appreciated.
 
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I think it'll work, just not perfectly. I'm in the same situation. You'll still be able to whirlpool and it'll bring some of the trub to the center, but you're probably going to still pass some through. Not to worry though, your CFC can handle it.
 
why not install the element vertically on the bottom center?

why does everyone do it to the side?

chris
 
why not install the element vertically on the bottom center?

why does everyone do it to the side?

chris

Because if you install it vertically, it goes up pretty high. If you install it horizantally as low as you can, usually three gallons will cover it (in a keggle).
 
depends...

If you're using a ULD RIPP or any element that is rather 'long', this prevents you from boiling while your at the start of your runoff. Also, if you want to make a smaller volume, this may cause problem since you want your element to be submerged when in use.
 
I have performed exactly ONE whirlpool in a 10 gallon kettle with a 5500w element and it formed a pretty decent trub pile despite of the element. It wasn't a perfect cone, but I think I got about 90% of the hop sediment to settle into the middle. Coulda been 80% I dunno, but it seemed to work good enough.
 
I have a 5500watt element in a converted keggle. My element is mounted horizontally at about the 2.5 gallon level in the keg (that was as low as I could get it because of the concave keg bottom. I have a pickup tube bent back toward the side of the keg. I'm able to whirlpool with pretty good success.

Ed
 
here is my setup (the element was had not yet been installed at the time the picture was taken) but I presume that its pretty similar to Eds

DSC_1404.jpg
 
I saw somewhere, I think it was in Kal's writeup for his brewery, that whirlpooling may not work so good in a BK with a heater element because the element interferes with the break pile, or perhaps the whirlpool itself. Has someone got experience with this?
Correct, I do mention this in relation to using the new Blichmann HopBlocker. Some users with elements in their kettles mentioned they couldn't get a good whirlpool going with the element in place, or should I say, enough of a whirlpool to effectively use the hopstopper. These were users here on the forum.

Now, who knows if they were experienced brewers/knew what they were doing... but I thought I'd point it out anyway. Just so that people knew to look out for this and consider it since I've ever used a Blichmann HopBlocker myself.

I've never tried to form a whirlpool myself (I use a HopStopper) and simply start cooling through my CFC fairly fast as soon as the boil is over. No whirlpool for me (which saves time).

I'll keep an eye on this post to see if there's any true evidence one way or another about whirlpooling with elements in place...

Would it work to install the element a few inches from the bottom so that it will clear the break pile, or will this not heat the wort below it? Any insight you can share is appreciated.

Install the element as low as you like. Wort is very thin like water and it gets churned enormously as you boil. It doesn't sit still. I installed my elements as low as I could based on the size of outside conduit box I used to house the element head. In my 20 gallon boil kettle with HopStopper in place, this means that the smallest batch size I can make is about 5 gallons. Fine by me since I've always brewed 10 gallons at a time.

Kal
 
why not install the element vertically on the bottom center?

why does everyone do it to the side?

chris

Now that is some original thinking! I like that. I will certainly keep this idea in mind when I get all the stuff. I doubt I will ever make a batch smaller than 5.5 gallon anyway, and if it covers the heater then great.

Here are a couple of potential issues with this idea that I thought of. First, as the heated wort rises from the bottom of the heater it will encounter more and more heater as it goes. That volume of wort in contact with the heater will be heated more than in a horizontal setup. Second, If a pile of trub builds up around the heater on the bottom, it will be important not to run the heater because it may overheat.

Anyway, thanks for your input.:)
 
Install the element as low as you like. Wort is very thin like water and it gets churned enormously as you boil. It doesn't sit still.

True, I have noticed that when using my propane burner. It probably will churn up the bottom layer, even thogh the heat is applied above it.

By the way, Kal, I am in awe over your electric brewery as well as your fantastic writeup. It tipped the scale for me to attempt one myself. Nice work!
 
Some people like heatsticks for this very reason. Can't remember who made it, but there's an awesome 240v heatstick on this forum that uses triclover fittings, etc. Just pull it from the kettle and whirlpool!
 
I my BK has a tangential input, so I just recirculate the wort using a march pump for the last couple of minutes of the boil. Turn it off and allow it to settle out, nice little pile of trub in the middle. The element doesn't seem to interfere too much with the whirl pool.
 
Coderage...I noticed you didn't go with the "fancy" whirlpool return, i.e. curving it with the vessel wall. Is an elbow enough? If so, I may just get a stainless street elbow instead of spending the $$$ on a ss compression fitting!
 
I my BK has a tangential input, so I just recirculate the wort using a march pump for the last couple of minutes of the boil. Turn it off and allow it to settle out, nice little pile of trub in the middle. The element doesn't seem to interfere too much with the whirl pool.

Interesting. I suppose I could circulate the wort through the CFC and thereby sanitize it, of course with no water on the cold side. Does it matter how high on the BK the return is? I guess I could put the return just under the surface of a 5 gal batch and it would work for a 10 gal batch too.

I just realized that if I turn on the chill water (after the CFC is sanitized) I could whirlpoool and chill at the same time. Whoa! :fro:
 
I think as long as the port is submerged, you can get a decent whirlpool going. I have no idea where the optimal position is, or if it makes a difference.
 
Interesting. I suppose I could circulate the wort through the CFC and thereby sanitize it, of course with no water on the cold side. Does it matter how high on the BK the return is? I guess I could put the return just under the surface of a 5 gal batch and it would work for a 10 gal batch too.

I just realized that if I turn on the chill water (after the CFC is sanitized) I could whirlpoool and chill at the same time. Whoa! :fro:

I do whirlpool and chill at the same time. If you are doing that, then yes it matters how high your return is. You want to return the cooled wort near the top or the pickup tube keeps recirculating the cooled wort near the bottom. My return is a an elbow with a short ss tube, the elbow is loose enough that I can adjust the height.
 
You want to return the cooled wort near the top or the pickup tube keeps recirculating the cooled wort near the bottom.

I dunno, the fact that the wort is being pumped and the whole volume is being swirled around, I bet you get good mixing no matter where the port is.
 
I dunno, the fact that the wort is being pumped and the whole volume is being swirled around, I bet you get good mixing no matter where the port is.

Not true for cooling.

Trust me on this one, I've done testing, you can easily see a 30f+ difference top to bottom in a keggle.

In the following graph, I was whirlpooling/chilling with the return pointed slightly downward.
The spikes in the temp during the cooling slope are where I manually stirred the volume to mix top & bottom. So when the temp probe near the bottom of the keggle read 107F I stirred and the temp spiked back up to almost 140f.

ChillTest2.jpg
 
heh yeah, I put a street elbow on it and stubbed out a piece of pipe. I worked a piece of 1/2" silicone over it and then put another small piece of 1/2" copper at the end of that to keep it submerged regardless of level. works pretty well.
 
I do whirlpool and chill at the same time. If you are doing that, then yes it matters how high your return is. You want to return the cooled wort near the top or the pickup tube keeps recirculating the cooled wort near the bottom. My return is a an elbow with a short ss tube, the elbow is loose enough that I can adjust the height.

I see. Good solution.

Here's an idea. How about reversing the flow for the whirlpool so that we feed the BK at the bottom and drain at the top using your movable ss tube? Heat rises to the top so that we would always drain the hottest wort to the CFC and feed cooled wort at the bottom. That should maximize cooling efficiency. Also, the trub tends to hang out at the bottom so there is less risk to suck up any before the whirlpool has done its job. For draining to the fermenter we need to drain from the bottom of course. I think this method needs a carefully aimed pickup tube at the bottom to get the whirlpool going.
 
I see. Good solution.

Here's an idea. How about reversing the flow for the whirlpool so that we feed the BK at the bottom and drain at the top using your movable ss tube? Heat rises to the top so that we would always drain the hottest wort to the CFC and feed cooled wort at the bottom. That should maximize cooling efficiency. Also, the trub tends to hang out at the bottom so there is less risk to suck up any before the whirpool has done its job. For draing to the fermenter we need to drain from the bottom of course. I think this method needs a carefully aimed pickup tube at the bottom to get the whirlpool going.

I understand the thought... I use a plumbing "manifold" to move liquids between any of the three vessels with a series of valves using 2 pumps... For me, switching the pump "input" would be kinda hard and I'm not sure how much it would really get me. Simply returning the cooled to the top is super easy and really helps.
 
I've only brewed my first and only batch on my new electric rig, but I can say that I got a very good whirlpool. My return port is just over half way up the kettle, through a 90 elbow. I use a CFC, by the way, not IC. I was very happy with the result.

For whatever it's worth.

TB
 
I've only brewed my first and only batch on my new electric rig, but I can say that I got a very good whirlpool. My return port is just over half way up the kettle, through a 90 elbow. I use a CFC, by the way, not IC. I was very happy with the result.

Cool! (pun) I am planning on using a CFC as well. Good to know it works for you. Thanks. :)
 
For those of you who whirlpool and chill simultaneously via counterflow chiller and march pump...what is the diameter of the beer line of your CFC? I have a 3/8" OD CFC and am wondering if it will restrict the whirlpool to a point where it is too weak to leave a proper trub pile. I brew 5 gallon batches, primarily. Any thoughts?
 
KaceMN said:
For those of you who whirlpool and chill simultaneously via counterflow chiller and march pump...what is the diameter of the beer line of your CFC? I have a 3/8" OD CFC and am wondering if it will restrict the whirlpool to a point where it is too weak to leave a proper trub pile. I brew 5 gallon batches, primarily. Any thoughts?

I don't chill while recirculating, but I do recirculate through my 3/8 OD CFC during the last few minutes of boil (to sanitize), then turn the heat off and keep the circulation going for a whirlpool. It does restrict the flow a little bit, but there's still enough to get a whirlpool going on an 11 gal batch if your return port is at a tangent. I just run the whirlpool for 10 or so minutes and most of the trub collects in the center.

Hope this helps.
TB
 
I've been thinking about using a Whirlpool which is separated from the outlet to the plate chiller. The Whirlpool will in this way be a "separate" system. This means that I won't re-circulate the wort to the kettle for even more effective chilling – but rather keep the whirlpool going as I drain the wort to the plate chiller.

I think this will create a pile of undisturbed trub in the middle of the kettle – even if I'm using a heating element which might have negative effect on a "normal" Whirlpool (well, at least that's what I hope for). As long as the Whirlpool is on, the sediments should stay in the middle.

The above system is of course more expensive since you need a separate pump.

/Anton
 
It sounds like you are planning to be actively whirlpool ing the whole time you are draining to your plate chiller which I think would defeat the purpose.

I'm sure someone with more experience will chime in, but my understanding was that the real effect of whirlpooling for separating trub really only happened as you let it settle afterwords.

Active whirlpooling during chilling is more of a strategy for immersion chillers to keep the wort flowing over the coils.

Would be curious to se what happens if you try it.
 
I’m aware of the fact that most people let their whirlpool rest for approximately 15 minutes.

But after watching how solid material acted in a tea cup when stirring it I got the idea of using the Whirlpool as an “inverted” centrifuge (not sure what to call it really).

As long as the whirlpool is activated (and keeps a certain speed of course) solid material should be focused to the middle of the kettle (I guess you would have to let it run for a few minutes first). And as long as the solid material is focused to the middle of the kettle – you should be able to drain clear wort to the plate chiller.

/Anton
 
ColdJazz said:
I’m aware of the fact that most people let their whirlpool rest for approximately 15 minutes. But after watching how solid material acted in a tea cup when stirring it I got the idea of using the Whirlpool as an “inverted” centrifuge (not sure what to call it really). As long as the whirlpool is activated (and keeps a certain speed of course) solid material should be focused to the middle of the kettle (I guess you would have to let it run for a few minutes first). And as long as the solid material is focused to the middle of the kettle – you should be able to drain clear wort to the plate chiller. /Anton

Have you whirlpooled before? If so, you'd see that all of the junk you're trying to collect in the center of the kettle is in suspension. That is why the rest is needed.

Without doing a rest, you'll be putting just as much in your fermenter if you hadn't whirlpooled at all. Maybe even a little more since without a whirlpool the proteins and hop bits have a chance to settle a little.
 
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