Accuflex Bev-Seal Ultra - length of line?

Hello,
I bought the Accuflex Bev-Seal line.
I read as much as I can find on this and answer vary greatly
On the group by thread there are guys using any where from 12-20 feet in length.

I have just made/kegged my first batch ever.

Details here if anyone is bored -
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/1st-beer-attempt-ever-lots-pics-biab-291598/

I cut it the line to 20' and was able to get it connected to keg/tail piece...that is a job.

My beer has been on gas 9 days now....12/12.5 psi at 36-37 degrees.
The middle of my keg is about 23" below my shank.

My pour now is OK, but missing some head unless I drop the glass down several inches..and then head is about 1/2" is that normal?
I know I should wait a week before I do much tweaking since the beer is still carbing.

Are their calculators for this exact line to show my how long it should be based on my setup?
How do I know, other than keep cutting it back, if line is to long?
I guess slow and no foam is better than all foam...


thanks Kevin

haeffnkr said:

Hello,
I bought the Accuflex Bev-Seal line.
I read as much as I can find on this and answer vary greatly
On the group by thread there are guys using any where from 12-20 feet in length.

I have just made/kegged my first batch ever.

Details here if anyone is bored -
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/1st-beer-attempt-ever-lots-pics-biab-291598/

I cut it the line to 20' and was able to get it connected to keg/tail piece...that is a job.

My beer has been on gas 9 days now....12/12.5 psi at 36-37 degrees.
The middle of my keg is about 23" below my shank.

My pour now is OK, but missing some head unless I drop the glass down several inches..and then head is about 1/2" is that normal?
I know I should wait a week before I do much tweaking since the beer is still carbing.

Are their calculators for this exact line to show my how long it should be based on my setup?
How do I know, other than keep cutting it back, if line is to long?
I guess slow and no foam is better than all foam...


thanks Kevin

Click to expand...

I'd wait until the beer is fully carbed before making it shorter. I use 20ft line, 13psi at 38-40 degrees and i'm happy with the pour. You can always cut later, but you can't add it back.

I'm using 10' at 12psi and 52F, 30" vertical between middle of keg and tap. It's coming out ok, it could be better, but i'm not about to trim the Accuflex Bev-Seal and re-attach. Maybe if i got a heatgun i would be more amicable to adjustments : )

i'm assuming we're all talking about 3/16".

I'm using around 16ish feet in my keezer. Around 10 psi and 38 degrees. I might be able to shorten it a foot or two, but overall i'm happy with it. A little of a slow pour, but it was such a pain to get the hose on that I'm not going to screw with it. Like you said, if i want a larger head, i'll just move the glass from the faucet a little.

Yes 3/16" line.

Thanks for the replies so far.
Kevin

I have a 6' line that is a bit fast and a 10' line that is a bit slow... for my 12 psi, 8' is prob spot on.

How fortunate. I was searching for this very same answer and it looks like you just posted this question today.

On the group by thread there are guys using any where from 12-20 feet in length.

Click to expand...

Well it looks like that variation has expanded even more. We're now at 6-20 ft in this thread

My pour now is OK, but missing some head unless I drop the glass down several inches..and then head is about 1/2" is that normal?

Click to expand...

That sounds like a pretty good pour to me, but I'm not sure where you're dropping it from. Several inches from the tap, or the drip tray?

Are their calculators for this exact line to show my how long it should be based on my setup?
How do I know, other than keep cutting it back, if line is to long?

Click to expand...

It would be good to hear some real science behind the balancing of the lines with the Bev-Seal Ultra. If someone does have a calculator/spreadsheet, I'd like to see it. I guess the target flow rate would be the first thing to get agreement on, no?

This article gives a formula for calculating if you have the resistance value of the line.

There is this thread discussing it on TheElectricBrewery website, but it looks like it was before the Bev-Seal Ultra was available (again) in 3/16" ID. It provides a few outside sources for calculating line length. Now, if we can just get verification of the line resistance. I put in an email to the company. I'll post back if I hear anything, but if someone else has information that they can provide, please do so.

I use 12' 38deg 12 psi very happy with it.

I'm wondering if a big part of why we are seeing such variation is the lack of accuracy in the gauge used to measure our serving pressure? I know that on my gauge at least, it goes from 0 - 80 or 100 psi, so i'm in the beginning of the range where the gauge is the most inaccurate when i'm trying to dial in 10 or 12 psi. So i wonder how many of us think we are serving at 10 psi and in reality are at 12 or 13 and have to balance our lines based on that, but others have a gauge that reads 2 or 3 psi low and are actually at 8 psi and only need 8-10 feet of line.

Maybe i'll get a more accurate gauge that only reads from 0-20 or something like that.

Edit: Just looked on mcmaster, and the best pressure gauge i could find, had 2% error in the middle of the range, and that gauge (0-30 psi) was 20 bucks. I doubt the gauge that comes on our regulators are that accurate, and also we probably aren't in the mid-range for them at 8-12 psi, so they could be off even more. I bet this has a lot more to do with the variation in line lengths that we are seeing than we give it credit for.

I wouldn't think with 3/16 line you'd need more than 10-12' to get a solid pour. I use 10' and get perfect pours each time. I couldn't imagine how slow 20' of line would be.

gregkeller said:

I'm wondering if a big part of why we are seeing such variation is the lack of accuracy in the gauge used to measure our serving pressure? I know that on my gauge at least, it goes from 0 - 80 or 100 psi, so i'm in the beginning of the range where the gauge is the most inaccurate when i'm trying to dial in 10 or 12 psi. So i wonder how many of us think we are serving at 10 psi and in reality are at 12 or 13 and have to balance our lines based on that, but others have a gauge that reads 2 or 3 psi low and are actually at 8 psi and only need 8-10 feet of line.

Maybe i'll get a more accurate gauge that only reads from 0-20 or something like that.

Edit: Just looked on mcmaster, and the best pressure gauge i could find, had 2% error in the middle of the range, and that gauge (0-30 psi) was 20 bucks. I doubt the gauge that comes on our regulators are that accurate, and also we probably aren't in the mid-range for them at 8-12 psi, so they could be off even more. I bet this has a lot more to do with the variation in line lengths that we are seeing than we give it credit for.

Click to expand...

I thought about this when I was setting up my system -



So I am pretty sure this new gauge is accurate on this rebuilt regulator, but I see your point..
A few PSI either way could make the difference in a few feet either way on line length.

thanks Kevin

Greg,
That is a great point. There is already too little confusion about line length! I guess I will just keep using the SWAG (scientific wild a$$ guess) method. I have cut this line three times and it is still too short.

I put in an email to the company. I'll post back if I hear anything, but if someone else has information that they can provide, please do so.

Click to expand...

I just got a response and all they provided me was some genetic sheet on line resistance for vinyl tubing. Vinyl tubing info isn't helpful. Keep in mind when responding to this thread that it is in reference to Accuflex Bev-Seal Ultra 3/16" tubing.

The 3/16 line on 1/4 barb was soo easy it only took me 1.5 hours!!! But my question is this, are people clamping the line on the barbs? I think i read that it is not needed but it makes me pretty nervous to hook up my vanilla bourbon porter to this for fear i will find the keg/co2 tanks empty and a mess in my keezer. Whats the consensus?

Billsbrew said:

The 3/16 line on 1/4 barb was soo easy it only took me 1.5 hours!!! But my question is this, are people clamping the line on the barbs? I think i read that it is not needed but it makes me pretty nervous to hook up my vanilla bourbon porter to this for fear i will find the keg/co2 tanks empty and a mess in my keezer. Whats the consensus?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to getting the line on the barbs. I don't have a heat gun either, so it will be extra painful. I'd say use a clamp for sure. What benefit do you gain from not securing the line to the barb? It's 20 cents and a lot of insurance.

20 cents...thats true, not sure why i was thinking not to put them on. i guess since the line is so hard i thought it wouldnt make much differance. I dont have a heat gun either just bring about 2 inches of water to a near boil and put the end in for about thirty seconds then stretch the line with a phillips screw driver and quickly put it on the barb. Not easy and takes some practice just keep dunking and wiggling, the line that is. Wear gloves too.

Billsbrew said:

20 cents...thats true, not sure why i was thinking not to put them on. i guess since the line is so hard i thought it wouldnt make much differance. I dont have a heat gun either just bring about 2 inches of water to a near boil and put the end in for about thirty seconds then stretch the line with a phillips screw driver and quickly put it on the barb. Not easy and takes some practice just keep dunking and wiggling, the line that is. Wear gloves too.

Click to expand...

This is what I did to get mine on -
Going forward I found some 3/16 tail pieces and some 5/32 swivel fittings that i am going to order for the rest of my lines.

But back to the length of line question.
Who knows what the real resistance factor of this line is?

thanks Kevin

No clamps on mine. After i got it on using a heat gun and screw driver, i heated it up one last time, then cooled it off. The stuff shrinks when it cools, so it forms to the barbs. I am completely confident that 3/16 line on 1/4 inch barbs is not coming off, and not going to leak one bit.

haeffnkr said:

This is what I did to get mine on -
Going forward I found some 3/16 tail pieces and some 5/32 swivel fittings that i am going to order for the rest of my lines.

But back to the length of line question.
Who knows what the real resistance factor of this line is?

thanks Kevin

Click to expand...

I would call whoever you're ordering from and confirm they are actually 3/16 tailpieces. I ordered 3/16 barbs and when I got them they were identical to my 1/4 barbs. I called to inquire and the guy told me they advertise 3/16 so people know to order them for their 3/16 vinyl tubing.

I use 14 feet coiled on top of the kegs. FWIW I was having all kinds of trouble getting the lines on the barbs, then I discovered a little trick. I took a pen, removed the ink cartridge. Then dipped the line in boiling water, shoved the pen into the line, dipped again, remove the pen then shove the line on the barb as fast as possible. Worked every time. Only took me an hour of racking my knuckles on my shanks to figure this out

Bump (so I can find it)

Hello,
After a few more days my pour seems to be about perfect. I need to count and see how long it takes to fill up my pint but I am thinking 4-5 seconds.
I have about 19.7 feet.

but I am still wondering how to calculate this length.

From the group buy thread this is posted -

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/gr...-barrier-line-257625/index17.html#post3185122

So if we use line resistance of 1.2, height of 23 inches from center of keg to shank, using Perlicks, set at 12.5 psi - who has a calculator showing anything close to 20 feet for my setup?
The few calculators I found do not come close to this length.

thanks Kevin

I like 20' (12psi). It is a slower pour, but I'm not in that big of a rush. Drop the glass at the end to get whatever head you want. I love that tubing.

haeffnkr said:

Hello,
After a few more days my pour seems to be about perfect. I need to count and see how long it takes to fill up my pint but I am thinking 4-5 seconds.
I have about 19.7 feet.

but I am still wondering how to calculate this length.

From the group buy thread this is posted -

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/gr...-barrier-line-257625/index17.html#post3185122

So if we use line resistance of 1.2, height of 23 inches from center of keg to shank, using Perlicks, set at 12.5 psi - who has a calculator showing anything close to 20 feet for my setup?
The few calculators I found do not come close to this length.

thanks Kevin

Click to expand...

I see it more as a trial/error thing. None of the calculators i've come across estimate line length particularly well in the home setting.

I bought some of this tubing and have not installed it yet. I think I am going to get some of the perlick flow control faucets and not worry about length.

jtejedor said:

I bought some of this tubing and have not installed it yet. I think I am going to get some of the perlick flow control faucets and not worry about length.

Click to expand...

I was really excited about those flow control faucets until I realized they don't make them in stainless steel. They're chrome plated brass.

I received this PDF from the manufacturer regarding the restriction resistance of their tubing. The "barrier" tubing is apparently the Bev-Seal Ultra tubing. According to that chart the resistance value is 2.2 lbs/ft of line, which just so happens to be the same resistance value for their vinyl tubing of the same size. It doesn't seem to add up for me. Anyone want to take a public stab at running some equations on here with the 2.2 lbs/ft of line as the resistance value?

gregkeller said:

No clamps on mine. After i got it on using a heat gun and screw driver, i heated it up one last time, then cooled it off. The stuff shrinks when it cools, so it forms to the barbs. I am completely confident that 3/16 line on 1/4 inch barbs is not coming off, and not going to leak one bit.

Click to expand...

+1 times 26. That's about how many barbs I've done this way. Only one leaked and I re-did it.

My multiplier ended up being about 1.1. So as per that, here are my lengths for my 7.2 cu ft freezer (not too much rise or distance):
6 PSI - 7'
7 PSI - 8'
8 PSI - 9'
9 PSI - 10'
10 PSI - 11'
11 PSI - 12' - Oatmeal Stout
12 PSI - 13'
13 PSI - 14' - Belgian PA
14 PSI - 16' - RyeIPA
15 PSI - 18' -
16 PSI - 20'
23 PSI - 30' - Berliner Weisse
30 PSI - 40' - Seltzer/Soda

It's all really about the speed. You don't have to test it with beer or wait till the beer is carbed to know. You just try for a particular speed of pour that you think is good. When I put a fresh keg of seltzer water on and charge it with gas, it still comes out at the same speed it would if it had gas in it. That gives me the verification I need. I dunno, 6 seconds per pint?

ocluke said:

Now, if we can just get verification of the line resistance. I put in an email to the company. I'll post back if I hear anything, but if someone else has information that they can provide, please do so.

Click to expand...

After a few back and forth emails with Accuflex, I finally got someone in their engineering department. Here's what I received:

Coors and the other breweries are the ones that have actually put the research into resistance on Barrier and vinyl lines. I have worked for 3 different Hose companies (Eaton, Arrow Hose as well as Accuflex). None have data on resistance that is internally generated.

All we can suggest to you is that as the Inside Dimension of a tube shrinks, the resistance increases. The relationship is not linear with resistance increasing at an accelerated rate, the smaller the ID is. At some point the tubes cross regardless of the material employed.

The data stated in the Coors Draft Services Manual is the “most” accurate data we have. This data is not “new” either. It has been around for a dozen years at least. No one has come to us before and suggested that they cannot balance their system properly. (Granted most people are still using Vinyl for choker lines but I know that Perlick has used our barrier lines as choker lines before and did not indicate to us that they needed to add footage in order to increase resistance).

From a trouble-shooting Perspective are you able to contact Perlick, Coors Draught Services or someone like Micro-Matic? Their Experience with Balancing systems will be of more value to you than anything we can give you.

The Coors data is the PDF I linked to in a previous post that stated a resistance value of 2.2 lb/ft. What I found most interesting was the sentence I put in bold that indicates that they do no believe this barrier tubing (at 3/16") requires any more length than vinyl tubing of the same ID to achieve the same resistance in the line. That seems to be contrary to the consensus here on HBT. Thoughts?

I'd say none of them have a clue...

Cheers!

wow... so much for providing clarity to this question

thanks Kevin

Hello,
Since this thread has gone a bunch of directions related to this line I thought I would chime in one more thing.

Some folks mentioned that a heat gun was the ticket for getting this hose on barbs.
I purchased an ebay heat gun for $25 delivered the other day.
I needed to get me second tap hooked up so I opened the new toy up.
After a couple practice runs and melting the hose, I got the process down and it is WAY easier than playing around in boiling water...way faster, and seems to make a better seal.
I put a medium sized cable tie around the barbs for good measure, over kill really.

Worth the purchase even if you don't use the heat gun again.

thanks Kevin

haeffnkr said:

I purchased an ebay heat gun for $25 delivered the other day.
I needed to get me second tap hooked up so I opened the new toy up.
After a couple practice runs and melting the hose, I got the process down and it is WAY easier than playing around in boiling water...way faster, and seems to make a better seal.

Click to expand...

Can you post your procedure it a little bit more detail? I've got 100' of this sitting in my closet because I got irritated with the boiling water method. If the key to success is a heat gun, I'm on board.

IffyG said:

Can you post your procedure it a little bit more detail? I've got 100' of this sitting in my closet because I got irritated with the boiling water method. If the key to success is a heat gun, I'm on board.

Click to expand...

Sure -
Go to HD or Lowes and get some gloves like this -
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
Note these were like 5 pair for $5 - love these gloves... not the price above...they are rubber coated.

Buy this heat gun -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25098189810...X:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1334wt_1163

- Cut tubing to 20'
- Put on gloves
- Take out heat gun and lay on old table/counter, turn on low, with tip facing you/outwards.
- Put end of tubing in one hand, holding it a few inches back from tip of cut hose (with gloves on) and fitting in other hand.
- hold tubing inline with the heat gun, so the heat is blowing up the END of tubing for about 2 seconds waving it around a little...once you see the tip of the hose start to curl up/melt ever so slightly - STOP - gently work the fitting into tubing end.. just enough to get it barely started and push on the fitting..it will only go on an 1/8" or so.
- wave the fitting/tubing assembly in front of the heat at 90 degrees, so now the SIDE of the barb fitting/tubing is in the heat, moving the assembly in and out of the heat and spinning the assembly with your fingers so you get even/complete heat to the assembly- do this for a couple of seconds only - then push on the fitting the rest of the way - might need to do this a second time if needed to get it seated all the way up the barb.
- You are done

I have cable tie tool, similar to this one -
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Eclipse-900-005-Cable-Tie-Gun/15085353

- and I used it to get a good pull/clean cut on the cable tie/clamp.
(of course you can use pliers and diaganols if you dont have the tool..)
this is overkill and probably not needed... but hey cheap insurance to stop leaks, cheap clamps that wont rust or scratch you up.
( I got this idea from HBT, not mine originally)

You can do both ends of the tubing in a minute once you get the hang of things.

Hope this helps
thanks Kevin

Perfect. Thanks for the details.

I do it a little different. First I put the heat gun on low. Then use a philipshead screwdriver and ream it into the hose while holding them both just above the heat gun heating just enough of the tubing to allow the reaming. The screwdriver getting hot also helps with this. Heating too much tubing and then pushing it into the screwdriver would collapse the tubing... you'll get the hang of that and might have to cut the tip off if a collapse happens. Then I put the barb on a ball lock (to be a handle to hold onto basically) and do the same with the barb, same procedure.
I do this next to the sink so I can douse it with cold water if I need to. This helps prevent a tubing collapse. Also then at the end, I heat up the barb and tubing one last time and dunk it in water to seal the deal, so to speak. It takes about 3 or 4 minutes per barb. No gloves needed this way.

Don't bother with the heat gun, flare tool, etc. etc. method of installing on barbs. Use John Guest fittings (requires alternative to the barb end on keg and shank side). Easy push-in fittings and makes adjusting length (if needed) much easier!

Shank:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2502-female-adapter-bspp-516-x-58-bspp.aspx

Flare for keg side:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2574-female-adapter-flare-516-x-14-flare.aspx

mothprodd said:

Don't bother with the heat gun, flare tool, etc. etc. method of installing on barbs. Use John Guest fittings (requires alternative to the barb end on keg and shank side). Easy push-in fittings and makes adjusting length (if needed) much easier!

Shank:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2502-female-adapter-bspp-516-x-58-bspp.aspx

Flare for keg side:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2574-female-adapter-flare-516-x-14-flare.aspx

Click to expand...

I really dont know why more people dont do this. The John Guest fittings are easy and brilliant. Worth their weight in gold.

haeffnkr said:

I thought about this when I was setting up my system -

So I am pretty sure this new gauge is accurate on this rebuilt regulator, but I see your point..
A few PSI either way could make the difference in a few feet either way on line length.

thanks Kevin

Click to expand...

Holy mackerel. Did that pressure gauge come off locomotive!?