All in fermentor lambic and timeline

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triat00

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Hello,

Simple question but cant find a simple answer.

So, my recipe and my plan are almost done for my first lambic. Ill use Wyeast 3278 with a simple recipe.

At first I planned to let it site 8-12 months on primary (dont know how the yeast evolve) then rack on raspberries for 3 months (read that it will keep more flavor then 6 months) and then bottle and drink after another 3 months.

1- I know that its a short timeline for a lambic but its an experiment and I think Ill try to let site longer next time but,... what do you think about the timeline?

2- For "regular beer" 8-12 month on primary is a long time... Why is it no a problem with lambic?

3- I read that Brett will feed on dead yeast. Why not leave the beer in primary for 12-24 months? According to my plan, I would add the raspberries to the primary and then rack to bottle.

Thanks
 
Leave the beer on the yeast cake for 8-12 months, then rack onto raspberries in a new carboy. I highly, highly suggest adding some other bugs in there, whether it's brett, sour beer bottle dregs, something. 3278 itself makes a pretty mediocre lambic, sorry to break it.

The reason is that the brett is done after 4-8 months, they're not going to keep eating the sacc if they're done chewing. The additional time is for the pedio bacteria and general aging purposes
 
Thanks for the info about Brett... I was certain that it will take longer then that. Ill keep that in mind.

Any other input?
 
The brett's not going to be done in 4 to 8 months. If that was the case brett beer wouldn't get brettier in the bottle. Check out Wild Brews for more info on the organism population timeline. It shows brett taking hold at 6 months and then becoming the only viable yeast at about a year, holding its population steady through the rest of the 3 year fermentation. There's also a research paper on American wild fermentation online that I can't re-find right now testing different ages of Allagash beers that supports this as well.

Your plan seems ok, but let the taste guide what you do not the timeline. If you like the flavor in 8 months then fruit it, if not let it go longer. Biggest advice would be to not wait 12 months before starting lambic #2. Also, if you're not already doing other sours then try souring up some saison's with bottle dregs. They're usually done faster letting you learn more about sour brewing without taking years to get feedback.
 
pohldogg said:
The brett's not going to be done in 4 to 8 months. If that was the case brett beer wouldn't get brettier in the bottle. Check out Wild Brews for more info on the organism population timeline. It shows brett taking hold at 6 months and then becoming the only viable yeast at about a year, holding its population steady through the rest of the 3 year fermentation. There's also a research paper on American wild fermentation online that I can't re-find right now testing different ages of Allagash beers that supports this as well.

Your plan seems ok, but let the taste guide what you do not the timeline. If you like the flavor in 8 months then fruit it, if not let it go longer. Biggest advice would be to not wait 12 months before starting lambic #2. Also, if you're not already doing other sours then try souring up some saison's with bottle dregs. They're usually done faster letting you learn more about sour brewing without taking years to get feedback.
Click to expand...

I can assure you as a professional microbiologist and a yeast rancher, that all commercial strains of Brett will drop out in 6-9 months. Your right, in spontaneous lambics, it will take months to appear. If you pitch 3278 or 3763 into a beer, a Brett pellicle will form in a month or less. Wild Brett make take months to appear when fighting all kinds of bacteria for resources

Just like in wine, the fermentation may be done but it still takes time for certain esters to develop, drop out, or be eaten/cleaned up. You can bottle after 6-8 months but you should keep it in bottles for flavors to continue to develop
 
Interesting. I hadn't considered the wild vs lab strains. All of my current sours have been dirtied up with dregs so no real comment there and no real desire to experiment with wyeast on it's own. My only experience would be that in the 4 times I've used wlp670 the Brett flavor didn't even show up until the 12 month mark, but that could be related to an extended food supply that was never consumed by LAB.

On the comment of fermentaion byproducts, isn't Brett the primary re-synthesizer? And wouldn't that benefit from extended aging in primary?
 
pohldogg said:
Interesting. I hadn't considered the wild vs lab strains. All of my current sours have been dirtied up with dregs so no real comment there and no real desire to experiment with wyeast on it's own. My only experience would be that in the 4 times I've used wlp670 the Brett flavor didn't even show up until the 12 month mark, but that could be related to an extended food supply that was never consumed by LAB.

On the comment of fermentaion byproducts, isn't Brett the primary re-synthesizer? And wouldn't that benefit from extended aging in primary?
Click to expand...

I've never used Wyeast on its own but I know people have. Very weak stuff alone

I totally agree with you that it's better to leave a beer on the cake for 12-20 months... but you can often bottle after six months as gravity pretty much has stabilized. Bottle aging vs bulk aging will still let flavors develop but not as entirely as much as bulk aging.

Yes Brett is the biggest resynthesizer, mostly Pedio and enteric bacteria products
 
bellmtbbq said:
I can assure you as a professional microbiologist and a yeast rancher, that all commercial strains of Brett will drop out in 6-9 months. Your right, in spontaneous lambics, it will take months to appear. If you pitch 3278 or 3763 into a beer, a Brett pellicle will form in a month or less. Wild Brett make take months to appear when fighting all kinds of bacteria for resources

Just like in wine, the fermentation may be done but it still takes time for certain esters to develop, drop out, or be eaten/cleaned up. You can bottle after 6-8 months but you should keep it in bottles for flavors to continue to develop
Click to expand...

I have a hard time believing all commercial strains of Brett drop out and do nothing after 6-9 months. Be that as it may, I recently listened to a presentation of Chad Yakobson's where he was talking about how Brett doesn't need sugar to survive. It will still work and create esters. I find it much more plausible that all the sugars have been eaten by Brett after 6-9 months, but that the brett continues working consuming compounds and creating new flavors.

If not, what do you say is developing the flavor during the aging process of lambics?
 
levifunk said:
I have a hard time believing all commercial strains of Brett drop out and do nothing after 6-9 months. Be that as it may, I recently listened to a presentation of Chad Yakobson's where he was talking about how Brett doesn't need sugar to survive. It will still work and create esters. I find it much more plausible that all the sugars have been eaten by Brett after 6-9 months, but that the brett continues working consuming compounds and creating new flavors.

If not, what do you say is developing the flavor during the aging process of lambics?
Click to expand...

I didn't say they don't do anything,
Or maybe I miswrote, Im a notoriously bad writer on this phone haha. My work at least has shown that most Brett strains are done working on complex sugar chains at around 6-7 months. You CAN bottle then. As I said, just like in wine, less flocculant mutants will stay in suspension and continue producing esters based on conditions. I agree with Chad on that... But most Brett mutants will drop out, leaving only some to continue producing esters.

By the way, Levi I'm a big fan of your blog. Will be interested to see O'so results
 
bellmtbbq said:
I didn't say they don't do anything,
Or maybe I miswrote, Im a notoriously bad writer on this phonehaha. My work at least has shown that most Brett strains are done working on complex sugar chains at around 6-7 months. You CAN bottle then. As I said, just like in wine, less flocculant mutants will stay in suspension and continue producing esters based on conditions. I agree with Chad on that... But most Brett mutants will drop out, leaving only some to continue producing esters.

By the way, Levi I'm a big fan of your blog. Will be interested to see O'so results
Click to expand...

Ah, ok, I thought on first read that you were saying Brett drops-out, as in dies off and does nothing.

Glad you like the blog. Its been fun learning and doing these projects. I'm headed up to O'so in a couple weeks to brew batch 2 of the lambic ;) This time no yeast will be pitched :eek:
 
That's how I took it also. I'd agree that in 6-9 months the sugars are gone enough to allow bottling, but flavor may not be fully developed.
 
my apologies for the mistake. I know better haha.

I hope your lambic produced at O'so will be unfiltered.. it's unlikely I'll be able to find a bottle on the East Coast, but if I do trade for one, it may be an easiest/cheapest way to find East Coast Yeast! haha
 
I can't wait to try [ed: brewing] a few sours and lambics. You guys want to send me a bottle or two in the meantime?
 
Thanks for all the info!

So, taste will be my guide and ill not worry to let my brew for a while in the fermentor
 

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