Confusion about Mash Requirement - Munich

Anyone care to try to clear this confusion up?
I've been told that Munich does not require 2-row to convert to fermentable sugars, by a HBS employee, but I noticed on the Malt Chart in the HBT wiki that it says mash required.
Just curious since I made a beer where either it did not convert or I got less out of the LME than I expected and the converted Munich made up the difference almost perfectably (i.e. I aimed for 1.056, got 1.042, should have gotten about that from the 6lbs of amber LME, but its always possible I got less and got to about 1.042 from the 1lb of munich that was mashed with crystal 55L and victory).

I do not understand the question. I don't think anything requires 2 row to be rendered fermentable.

Mash means that you keep the grain at 149-154F or so for 45 minutes to an hour. 2 row requires that also.

I know that Munich "can" convert itself, but I've noticed from brews where Munich is my base malt that my efficiencies are significantly lower. Whenever I use a significant amount of Munich now, I make sure there's some 2-row or 6-row also to help the conversion.

cheezydemon - i didnt mean two row specifically, but my understanding is that some grains can't convert themselves and require something with the proper enzymes, such as 2 row or 6 row.

I made an all-munich porter, and the only thing I noticed was a higher than average FG. My efficiency was fine, and there was no 2- or 6-row in there.

Munich has plenty of diastatic power (and then some) to convert its own starches into fermentable sugars. However, you have to mash it to achieve that conversion.


TL

yeah, see, i thought it didnt have diastatic power because of Papazian, and thus i need to mash it with something that does.

Be careful though, you really should look up the individual Maltster's numbers for Diastatic power.

The rough way that I understand it is when you have numbers around 100 Lintner they do a fair job at self conversion and can help along other malts with less power, even more so with things that go over 100. Where you should take not is if you have a high percentage malt with below 80. What this really means (as I understand it) is that it would theoretically convert given enough time even if your numbers are low and much more rapidly when the numbers are high.

The trick to this is that you have to have an apparatus (usually direct fired mash tun) to keep the enzymes in their sweet spot for the length of time necessary (and observe pH levels). I'd imagine there is some lower cutoff of the amount of enzymes necessary in the malt, but it's probably a combination of factors. I really don't know if they become spent persay or if they still continue working just very slowly? Phil would probably know, I'll ask him.

Sounds like the confusion is in the wording. Munich will convert itself in a mash as your HBS stated. Mash required on the chart appears to indicate that it must be mashed and not steeped lke in an extract+steeping grains recipe. If you wanted Munich in your extract recipe you would want to look for Munich extract. Since you're doing a partial mash though it's probably not relevant.

Maybe if you post up some more details on your recipe someone will chime in on the effcieny trouble.

i mashed this:

1 lb munich
1 lb victory
1 lb crystal 55L
2 oz roasted barley
2 oz chocolate

did it in a pot at 158 or so degrees for about 45 minutes. Am i misunderstanding mashing and there's more to it than keeping the temperature up and stirring constantly? Ran a little hot i suppose... According to my HBS, should have gotten about 1.017 out of that, and about 42 out of the 6lbs of amber LME i added to that for the boil.

Ahh ok so you did a mini mash then.

Well you have 2.25 lbs of malt that must rely on the DP of other malts in the mash. Munich usually has enough for itself, in some cases a little more. The only way to isolate this is to go back in time and use an Iodine test for conversion. Yeah I would venture a guess that you did not get full conversion because of low DP. You might get away with this (as I was mentioning before) with going longer on the mash, the thing is you run the trouble of keeping the mash at the right temp (and possibly pH).

I never heard of stirring a mash constantly. I put mine in the MLT and stir well and walk away and let it do its thing. I do stir occasionally if I have a large grain bill. When I did PM's I sometimes put the grain in an extra large grainbag and mashed in my brewpot. I ducked it around alot like a tea bag and "squished" it up alot to make sure all the grains inside were wetted and loose.

The temperature you had was ok, I usually like to keep mine at 154 for an hour or so, until I have conversion. But for a PM, your time/temperature was fine (maybe just a little too high, especially if your thermometer isn't 100% accurate). You wouldn't have had much in the way of fermentables with the chocolate, crystal, or roasted barley, so I would't have expected the mash to contribute anything really significant in the way of fermentables in a 5 gallon batch, maybe only a gravity point or two, certainly no where near 17 points.

At 158 it would take even longer. Typically you should get around 30 ppg with the Crystals. So 2.25*30/5=13.5 ish if all goes well (and that's not specific for the chocolate is lower and the roast barley even more so)

Ok so (.125*22+.125*24+2*30)/5 = 13.15

haha, well now im confused as to how much gravity i would have gotten out of the mini mash...the end result of the mini mash is that i know my beer is going to taste better (the whole recipe was posted as a thread somewhere), but that im wondering if the next time i want munich to give me some fermentables if i should help it along with something like 2 row or 6 row.

Well, 2 pounds of grain, be it Munich, victory, or 2-row will NOT give you many fermentables in a 5 gallon batch. Munich CAN convert itself, and I've made some nearly all Munich batches. Your temp was a little high, and your time was a little short, as Zoebisch said, and using only 2 pounds of malt (the munich and victory) will not give you many gravity points at all. My figures are slightly different than zoebisch's- I come out with a total possibility of 11 points IF the mash was perfect and every bit of sugar was extracted.

Still, you are right- you'll have better flavor and a much better beer even if your fermentables come from the extract.

After thinking on this a bit:

(.125*22+.125*24+3*30)/5 = 19.15 (using Palmer's tables, which probably accounts for the difference that Lorena gets with my numbers). So that's probably the points you could have seen for 3.25 lbs of grain. Give or take depending on the aforementioned factors.

6 row has more diastatic power and so it is commonly used to help other grains convert starch in a mash.