new 10 gallon rig w/ propane, plan on turning it into elec....one day

Ok well after 3 seasons (fall/winter) of brewing full boil AG batches on the stove I finally took the plunge to get a larger system. This is propane right now but future plans are to make it electric, but before that I want to get into the system with propane and get used to it & get a system down with it before electric. I upgraded to save some time on batches and I usually make the same 5-7 recipes over and over.

I’m hoping with the above this is a good place to put my thread but if mods want to move it plz feel free to do so. There’s not a real good place where a lot of discussion goes on about regular rigs and plenty here about elec rigs so I thought I’d get more visibility here as well as the fact that I intend to go elec eventually.

Here’s a link to pics of the rig, they aren’t mine. I just recently bought this off CL and I got some kegs and a heap of other stuff along with it. The guy was getting out of the hobby.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13343533@N00/2462005267/in/set-72157604867921937
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13343533@N00/2462005267/in/set-72157604867921937

I don’t have the $$ for a pump yet but that will be the first thing on my list, pry a chugger pump.
1.)the rig came with hi temp lines but it wasn’t the clear(er) type I’ve seen here. The valves on the kegs have “barbed” fittings on them. Can I use a pump with just barbed fitting or do I need more secure connectors that won’t blow off with the pressure of a pump?

For starters…. to get going on the rig I’d appreciate some feedback from others with a 2-tier and no pump. I’m going to try to double batch sparge like I have before (on the stove with 5 gallon MLT cooler) but with this rig. Since I have only two burners on the waist level shelf and no burner on the upper shelf, it looks like I only have two options to run this rig (I’m simply doubling what I usually use for water on stove for purposes of explaining the two processes);

A.) [HLT on upper shelf, MLT & BK at waist]
Heat water (~8 gall) at waist level and drop into bucket (2-3X) then transfer to HLT on upper shelf for dough in (MLT at waist level).
Add heat as needed to maintain MLT temps. Wait for hot water in HLT to drop to appropriate temp then dough in using gravity.
Heat water at wasit level with BK (~8 gall) for sparge.
Transfer hot water to HLT on upper shelf.
Drop BK to ground and let initial (1 hr mash) runnings go into BK.
Sparge and then again into BK. BK should be ~70# (8 gall wort +keggle weight), lift BK to waist level.
Sparge to MLT ~74# (wet grain+keggle+~4 gall water), lift to upper shelf.
Grav drain to BK, boil, drain to carboys on floor.

B.) [MLT on upper shelf HLT & BK at waist]
Place MLT on upper shelf.
Heat water (~8 gall) in HLT on waist shelf, transfer to bucket to MLT for dough in (2-3X & hope to God I can get the right temps in MLT).
Possible add boiling water to MLT if temps fall too far down.
Heat sparge water (~8 gall) in HLT, transfer via bucket (2-3X) for double sparge.
Grav drain to BK, boil, drain to carboys on floor.

So B is the safest but doesn’t give me much temp control, A is the hardest in terms of lifting any single one weight and possibly the unsafest but offers the best temp control.

I’ll be chilling with 5/8 OD 50’ immersion chiller. Eventually I’ll add an elec element to the HLT, possibly a 220 element but run it on 110 till I get a control panel going. In the end I expect to run 50 amps to garage spa panel then to control panel (HD plastic panel) with PID & PWM in it. Pry go with 5500W elements since I can’t see myself making TWO 10 gallon batches in one day. Really, does anyone do this, I mean 4 carboys !!!? I don't have a ferm chamber large enough for two carboys (I have one small drig that I've been using, fits a single carboy perfectly) so doing two batches in one day seems out of reach for now.

The pump is also much needed. Other upgrades I’d like to do is sight glasses on HLT & BK and another port in keggle to do whirl pooling when chilling via the pump.

2.) does anyone think I’ll have issues with batch spraging based on the bazooka / torpedo screens I have in the kettle?

For simplicity, I would do a batch using only the MLT and the kettle at waist level. Heat strike water in the MLT and sparge water in the kettle. Collect runnings in a bucket and transfer to kettle, transfer sparge water w/ a bucket or pitcher...fill kettle and boil. Moving water to the elevated tier just so gravity can drain it down is not any easier than just using a temporary bucket and keeping everything at waist level IMO, unless of course you want to fly sparge rather than batch.

That screen looks fine for lautering IMO.

my concern with collecting runnings is Hot Side Aeration.

Edit: sorry, what I meant to say was collecting runnings in a bucket & then transferring useing a bucket could introduce oxygenation on hot side

I was thinking of a similar concept (transfer) myself. Are you saying you cannot dump a collection in a bucket into a kettle without fear of HSA. What if it was gently transferred?

I did transfers from a bucket of runnings before I got my second kettle when I was doing batches on the stove. I only did a few like this and never felt very comfortable doing so. some say that HSA is a myth but I'm not going to take any chances.

also, I'm never going to be able to gently transfer from a 5 gall bucket to a keggle gently

I was hoping someone would be able to address the two questions I labeled 1.) & 2.)

sillyburt said:

I did transfers from a bucket of runnings before I got my second kettle when I was doing batches on the stove. I only did a few like this and never felt very comfortable doing so. some say that HSA is a myth but I'm not going to take any chances.

also, I'm never going to be able to gently transfer from a 5 gall bucket to a keggle gently

I was hoping someone would be able to address the two questions I labeled 1.) & 2.)

Click to expand...

1) you wont have issues with too much pump pressure on barbed fittings. The only issue barb fittings present with a pump is some have quite a bit of reduced inside diameter. This can make priming and keeping a prime on the pump harder.

2) you can batch sparge just fine with a braid, as channeling isn't an issue when batch sparging.

i transferred hot wort from MT to BK many times before I had a pump. On the homebrew level HSA is a myth.

I use a bucket for transfers and have been that is more than a year old. There isn't any oxidation I can detect.

Alright, last night I started reading more posts about going electric, as I have for the past few months on and off. after my head started spinning too much, I thought perhaps I’d better take this one step at a time with input from the boards.

so to catch everyone up on what I’ve done recently; I’ve brewed about 6-7 batches since my last post. I’ve bought a few items so I don’t have to worry about dumping my runnings into a pail then to my BK ( a pump, some quick disconnects, etc as shown in pic). I’ve opted to buy copper female threads to insert to my existing high temp tubing rather than spend money on silicone tubing right now. BTW I also bought a NIB 5500W element on the cheap of someone on the boards here for the future eventual conversion to elec.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45964493@N07/8410197582/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45964493@N07/8409101175/in/photostream



I’ve also added an old burner I got from one of my turkey fryers that I never used since I was on the stove and didn’t need it. that helps with all of my initial issues with transferring runnings as well as adding hot water to my HLT. I tried it once or twice and vowed never to do it again (YIKES). this is removable so when I switch to elec I can sell or repurpose…or perhaps after going elec I’ll decide I no longer like the stand and make another one and sell it whole

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45964493@N07/8409100407/in/photostream


so now I have my next problem in my steps towards elec brewing. due to the type of MLT I have, more specifically the “bottom-bazooka tubes” if you will. I’ve scorched a couple of batches using direct fire. I wanted to get a false bottom but the more I started thinking about it, the more I decided the money spent would be better in getting closer to the HERMS system I wanted. so I began searching and more options came up like RIMS and if I should be able to do back to back batches when I go elec, if 2x5500W elements are safe, etc, etc.

so I’ve decided (and not necessarily ground in stone) that I will change my ugly IC into a removable HERMS and still use it as an IC. I made this some time ago from about 30’ of 5/8” OD copper. I didn’t bother soldering anything and just turned the coil down into a smaller coil with my hands (I had no cornies back then) and bent the incoming and outgoing ends to straddle the upper lip of my 30 qrt pot. this thing worked wonders on 5 gallon batches and fit perfect in my [old] pot even though one of the return/income tubes was simply bent upwards and on the outside of the coil. the pic below shows my IC with me trying to bend it back to continue the coil. then I’ll add a 90* to bring that tube back up thru the inside of the coil.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45964493@N07/8409198579/in/photostream



right now I’m having a difficult time inserting my IC all the way into the BK due to the to “hanger hooks” made from the incoming/outgoing tubes. I’ll try to bend those back or cut them off. then I’ll extend the income/outcome tubes taller to stick out of the kettle with some straight copper I bought. I think this will alleviate that issue and allow me to submerge the entire IC, as right now I end up with 2-4 coils outside of the wort. then I’ll add on some copper female threads like I did to my tubing. I can either add camlocks to the female threads or thread on a converter so anyone can still use a garden hose IC if/when I sell it. I also have another 60’ coil I’ve never touched, so if I have to, I can create another one again.

I’m working on some ideas on how to make both a HERMS removable chiller with one pump and two tiered set up. I’ll need another hose but if I make the inlet higher than the outlet I may be able to use gravity instead of another pump. any suggestions from anyone that’s done this? I’ll try to come up with some type of diagram of what I’ve got in my head for this.

I’ve thought about poking holes thru the HLT and making the IC fixed but that makes it heavier and I’ve got a ways to go already with the heavy keggle-HLT. besides it seems to make it too permanent, so for now I’m against that.

any thoughts, suggestions on this next step forward? while I’ve got plenty of other questions but I’m not at that point yet. future plans are pry for a simple control box from HD, 1 pid, 1 PWM and 2 5500 elements, 50 amp breaker in main box, 50 amp GFCI spa panel. for now a 30 amp cord to control box & I will most likely not go the DIN rail route with breakers in the control panel….at least not yet.

sorry for long yammering but after having about 6-8 diff HBT pages up at once flipping thru them last night, I’m feeling like there’s so much here and unlike sorting it all out when I learned how to brew from here, I’m overwhelmed with the choices and options I have available, as well as fear I’ll regret the path I take….LOL 

sillyburt said:

my concern with collecting runnings is Hot Side Aeration.

Edit: sorry, what I meant to say was collecting runnings in a bucket & then transferring useing a bucket could introduce oxygenation on hot side

Click to expand...

Please don't be silly Burt. HSA is a myth at the HB level...unless your making a beer to age years, it would be silly Burt to fear HSA IMHO.

well with the pump now that concern is a thing of the past & no more running around w/150-170* liquid in a bucket

so any feedback from my 1-23 post about the IC?

I worked on it over the weekend and would have had it all solder up except two elbows I had dry fitted wouldn’t come apart. SERIOUSLY I used pliers on the straight pipe going to the elbow and basically tore it to pieces but could not get the elbow off. the another one did the same thing and I didn’t feel like making the trek to buy another one. hopefully I can work on it this weekend.


now to my next question. I have one element and was considering on installing it in my HLT now that I’ll pry be heating both HLT & MT both at same time so any help with the propane from an element would help. only problem is I don’t have the 240 in the garage yet. SO I’ve read that running a 5500W element at 120 instead of 240 will really give me 1375W…..well I’m ok with that if I can get it now without spending alot of cash. I already have several different gauges of wire. also another benefit is seeing how I have to clean some of the equipment and more or less push it thru a trial run I might as well poke the hole thru the keggle and install the element.

SO the question is can I install this element and wire to a cord or 14 or 12 ga NM-B to a plug and literally plug it in the wall to fire it up? I’ve heard of others wanting to do this but I can’t seem to find it in my notes. of course the outlet is GFCI protected

this would benefit me in several ways as I’d gain extra heat now, it would cost me very little to do it & I planned on installing it sooner or later.

I also managed to order some more camlocks since I’ll need a third hose now.