Lots and lots of questions RE: Flanders Red

Sorry to pile on another "critique my plan" thread, but I am 100% new to sour brewing and I want to make 100% sure I have all my ducks in a row. To borrow an old saying, "measure twice, brew once." I have several questions I am hoping to get answered.

I am going to brew a 5 gallon partial-mash version of saccharomyces' Landers Fred. But instead of using Roselare, I will pitch Nottingham plus the dregs from one Russian River Consecration, one Russian River Supplication, and one Jolly Pumpkin Noel De Calabaza. Is this going to be enough to get the funk where I need it?

Is there any way to forecast what flavor(s) I'll get based on the source beers, or will it end up being survival of the fittest and whichever bugs thrive will dominate the final product?

One of my favorite Flanders flavors is the cherry pie sourness. Is there any way to build your beer to achieve this flavor, or is it luck of the draw?

I have 10-or-so crab apple trees that grow near my work. I have already picked enough to make 5 gallons of crab apple wine and 15 jars of crab apple jelly, but there are plenty more where that came from. What would you think about crab apples in a Flanders? I know they would be rocking in a Lambic and maybe even a Berlinner Weisse (and I may brew one of those just for this purpose).

Bonus question: I brewed 10 gallons of my Kentucky Common (recipe is 66% American two row, 22% Corn grits, 8% Crystal 60, 4% Pale Chocolate, Willamette and Palisade Hops. 1.049 OG, 35 IBU). As a lark, I siphoned some off in to a one gallon carboy after primary and added the dregs from a bottle of Hanssen's Oude Kriek and 0.2 oz French oak cubes. Does this sound like it would taste good?

Finally, I want to give a shout-out to Mike at Crown Liquors here in Indy. I told him about my brewing plans and emailed him a list of beers that had harvestable Bret and bacteria. He took the time to go through the list and tell me what was available in his store. He also was kind enough the share a bottle of Supplication with me and my SWMBO and let me keep the dregs from that bottle. It's always nice to see customer service done right.

Here are some answers:
"measure twice, brew once" - not going to work for sour beers. Most sour beers are actually made by blending.

You should get plenty of funk with those dregs. The only problem is that a lot of the souring in Flanders Red and most sours for that matter come from lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus and pediococcus). And I'm not sure if you will have high enough concentrations with just dregs. Even the Roeselare blend hardly sours enough on the first pitch. So it may help to either do a partial sour mash, use some acid malt or add a commercial lacto strain.

There is not a great way to predict what will be the dominant strain and therefore flavors. From my experience the Jolly Pumpkin bugs are very strong and fast acting. But I always suggest making a starter from bottle dregs before using in a main batch. It would be sad to waste such a time consuming batch on a bad bottle or a flavor you don't like.

Brett Lambicus is usually credited for giving that flavor and I believe most prefer the Wyeast strain. But I don't have any direct experience.

Crab apples - not sure. My recommendation as I said above is to blend. I would not add them straight to the batch, but make more wine or cider so you can create a Crab Apple Cuvee later.

Kentucky Common sounds great. My one word of caution that I have noticed in some of my sour beers lately is that the oak flavor is too dominant. In most sours they use wood just as a place to keep bugs and to help with micro-oxygenation. It really isn't suppose to be a big flavor component. I do really like oak and especially French because after a year it produces a great vanilla component that helps most beers. But just be careful with the amount especially on lower gravity, paler style beers.
And I'm a big fan of the 1 gal test batches.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/07/dreg-series-explained.html

Good Luck and make sure to update with your results.

Thank you for the response, Almighty. I actually plan on following the Landers Fred instructions and brew two batches and blend them, so I am fine on that front. I was just playing off an old saying "measure twice, cut once" meaning I wanted to make sure I had everything straightened out before I start.

Now do you think I should also buy a smack pack of roselare and add it with the dregs? I've been reading a lot of the Mad Fermentationist and he says it's possible to make a sour with just dregs (R.R.'s use champagne yeast for priming so far as I know, so I'm using the Notty for primary fermentation). I was hoping to cut costs, but again I would prefer not to screw anything up.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a crab apple cuvee?

As for the soured Kentucky Common, I only put in 0.2 oz of oak. I heard that 1 oz per 5 gal is standard for sours, so I scaled back appropriately.

dougdecinces said:

I will pitch Nottingham plus the dregs from one Russian River Consecration, one Russian River Supplication, and one Jolly Pumpkin Noel De Calabaza. Is this going to be enough to get the funk where I need it?

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Could be, although the notty will probably dominate the other yeasts/bugs to start. Ive made a couple now with only dregs, and it really really helps if the sours are very fresh

dougdecinces said:

Is there any way to forecast what flavor(s) I'll get based on the source beers, or will it end up being survival of the fittest and whichever bugs thrive will dominate the final product?

One of my favorite Flanders flavors is the cherry pie sourness. Is there any way to build your beer to achieve this flavor, or is it luck of the draw?

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This is probably gonna be tricky. Ive gotten lots of cherry nose from WY brett L but Ive yet to really ever taste anyone thats gotten a lot of cherry flavor from it

dougdecinces said:

I have 10-or-so crab apple trees that grow near my work. I have already picked enough to make 5 gallons of crab apple wine and 15 jars of crab apple jelly, but there are plenty more where that came from. What would you think about crab apples in a Flanders? I know they would be rocking in a Lambic and maybe even a Berlinner Weisse (and I may brew one of those just for this purpose).

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I would tend to shy you away from very tannic sour fruits in an already sour beer. I do like Almightys idea of using the apples in a cider for astringency and balance and possible blending later on though

dougdecinces said:

Bonus question: I brewed 10 gallons of my Kentucky Common (recipe is 66% American two row, 22% Corn grits, 8% Crystal 60, 4% Pale Chocolate, Willamette and Palisade Hops. 1.049 OG, 35 IBU). As a lark, I siphoned some off in to a one gallon carboy after primary and added the dregs from a bottle of Hanssen's Oude Kriek and 0.2 oz French oak cubes. Does this sound like it would taste good?

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It could, my first though was that its way too bitter though, I agree that the oak would be best to be very subtle. I think oak has become a far too over used ingredient and usually with too heavy a hand

I put 10# of bing cherries and 3# of currants in my first Flanders Red. Definately a cherry tartness there.

Ok, all. Common sense has prevailed, and since this is my first sour I am going to play it safe. I'll use Roselare and pitch the consecration and supplication dregs with it. I'll save the Noel for a fun little 1 gal side project.

Passedpawn, I like your idea of adding cherries in secondary. I will have 10 gallons of final product (pitching 5 gal on the original yeastcake and aging in secondary, so I have room to play around.

Ryane, I originally had the same idea about my KY Common being too hoppy, but at that point I ran out of bottles (I have 48 more that someone gave me, but they are dirty and I'm lazy), so I thought what the hell. Plus, I know that some people make RIS and sour them. How does that work? Do they brew a special low IBU version? Or is it all about BU:GU?

Its a different direction than what you've planned for this batch, but my first sour (recipe in sig) is 100% Cherry Pie in aroma right now. It was fermented with Wyeast Lambic Blend as the "primary" strain(s), with dregs from 2 bottles of Orval afterwards. Not sure which batch of bugs is responsible for the Cherry Pie in that one, but it's overwhelming. I am fighting the urge to bottle and/or keg that sucker right now because it smells AWESOME, but is only a few months old.

I think you will be much happier using the commercial blend and then augmenting it from there.

A "cuvee" - is just a fun French term for a special blend. So people will use the term when they blend a few batches together for a special occasion. The most famous sour beer like that is Lost Abbey's Cuvee de Tomme (so a blend by the brewer Tomme Arthur)

I usually use about 1 oz of French Oak per 5 gals also. I will boil the cubes for 10 minutes and get rid of the water, then pitch. And I have used .2 oz in my 1 gal test batches and for the paler beers it has taken over the flavor. For the darker, maltier beers that amount has worked.

And taking some off later to put on cherries is a good idea. I have a gallon of my Flander's Red on 1lb of sour cherries that I will be tasting soon.