Apple juice vs apple cider...

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gratus fermentatio

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OK folks, let's try to reach an understanding here: Apple juice is just that, juice. Apple cider is what we as homebrewers/winemakers/meadmakers & CIDERmakers, etc... make from it. What is commonly labeled & sold as "apple cider" on grocery store shelves is NOT cider. It is apple JUICE. Even the wonderfully tasty, brown, cloudy stuff that is only available in the autumn & sold as "cider" is really only apple JUICE... "Cider" is what it becomes after we, or professionals, FERMENT it. Samuel Smith's Organic cider is cider. Farnum Hill Cider is cider. Ziegler's, Tree Top, Langer's, Albertson's, Safeway, White House, Western Family, etc, ad nauseum... are all just JUICE, regardlees of whether their labels say "cider" or not. If it contains no alcohol, it is NOT "cider." And some that DO contain alcohol are not worthy of the term "cider," but that's another post. Only in America do we make such things so damned complicated. FYI: I'm American, born & bred, so I'm exercising my 1st ammendment rights here. Anybody want to disagree, you have the right to do so. Since this little "rant" had everything to do with cider & juice, I posted here; if it should've been posted under "rants" I hope one of the moderators will move this to the "Rants" section & let me know so I don't make the same mistake (IF it is one) again. Thank you for allowing me to bend your ear(s). Regards, GF. "In vino, veritas." :drunk:
 
What about apple cider vinegar? Where does that fit in? hahahah

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously though, thanks for the clarification. Maybe a more appropriate term for the (non-alcoholic) cider would be homestyle apple juice... like they call the orange juice with the pulp.
 
I think with the different terms used in the US, the fermented stuff has taken on the name "hard cider" for most commercial fermented apple based beverages.

I'm not trying to be a ******, but could you use paragraphs? Its mighty hard to read one huge post.
 
I think with the different terms used in the US, the fermented stuff has taken on the name "hard cider" for most commercial fermented apple based beverages.

I'm not trying to be a ******, but could you use paragraphs? Its mighty hard to read one huge post.

Point taken. I shall endevour to use paragraphs in the future. Regards, GF.
 
Gratus, you are my hero for the day. Coming from the UK, I have always found it befuddling. "Hard cider"? What the heck!? If it's fermented apple juice, then it's bloody cider! If it is unfermented it is apple juice! How difficult is that to understand! If the marketers want to call it cider, then how about calling it non-alcoholic cider? or even simpler...Apple juice!

oops! I got my boxers in a knot. :(
 
Gratus, you are my hero for the day. Coming from the UK, I have always found it befuddling. "Hard cider"? What the heck!? If it's fermented apple juice, then it's bloody cider! If it is unfermented it is apple juice! How difficult is that to understand! If the marketers want to call it cider, then how about calling it non-alcoholic cider? or even simpler...Apple juice!

oops! I got my boxers in a knot. :(

Laughing Gnome: THANK YOU! You've managed to put it even more succinctly than I did. Ordinarily I'd say "Your honor, I rest my case" at this point, but I've a feeling that there will be more opinions/comments on this. <LOL> But thank you for a lifeline of common sense. Regards, GF. :mug: Ya, I seem to have got my knickers in a twist too. <LOL>
 
Sooo,
Do you have some historical or educational perspective that makes your opinion in this uniquely qualified?

Did you do as much research as Cecil Adams?

He didn't do a lot of research, he made a few phone calls and got an email. I did that much and got the same story. Then I made 2 more calls and wrote a real paper letter. So I did more research that Cecil. So by this concept I am the better expert.

Cider is "the pressing of apples early in the harvest to get the juice from the apple".
Apple Juice is "the rest of the apples to get the juice from the apple".
So THEY ARE BOTH JUICE!!!!!

I rest my case. From this point, at request of the OP, it shall all be Apple Juice. When you go to the store and see it labeled cider you can smile at their error.
 
Thanks gf for clearing that up. We k1w1s follow the English terms, so I have to constantly read and re-read forum posts to savvy what is meant.
 
OP: I'm with you. If it's alcoholic, it's cider. If not, it's juice!

Maybe they should call the cloudy stuff 'Apple Juice, extra pulp' Like they do with OJ.

Either way, if I call it cider, I mean it's been fermented!
 
I've noticed that most of the time, apple cider and apple juice looks identical in jugs in the store. Makes me wonder why they even bother, since they both taste the same too.
 
OK. I'm ok with the juice definition.

Consider this... The place that commerially takes apples and presses the juice from the apples and typically sells it "freshly pressed" at the same location is called a ?????
1) Juice mill
2) My back yard
3) Orchard
4) Cider mill
5) all of the above

just my $0.02
CR
 
I've noticed that most of the time, apple cider and apple juice looks identical in jugs in the store. Makes me wonder why they even bother, since they both taste the same too.

I have not seen many jugs labeled apple cider that look like the apple juice containers. If a store does carry cider it is usually in the produce section in a simple plastic milk jug with a small label. The apple juice in on the shelf next to the bottles of Juicy-Juice with a custom formed plastic or glass bottle and a large colorful label. The cider is usually cloudy and the juice is clear. And in my opinion they taste nothing alike.

I find these differences quite substantial so the distinction between the common terms cider and juice in the US makes perfect sense to me. However I do understand how it may be confusing to someone who is used to fermented apple juice being called cider. Or to someone less familiar with fresh pressed apple cider.

Craig
 
This is the story I have heard...

Cider was (as it is in other parts of the world) used in America to refer to the fermented stuff. During prohibition when the fermented cider was illegal, juice makers started referring to the fresh pressed, unfiltered stuff as cider and the filtered stuff as juice. After prohibition the names just stuck.

I know it is confusing but, it is terminology that has been around for nearly 100 years. It is not likely to change.
 
This is the story I have heard...

Cider was (as it is in other parts of the world) used in America to refer to the fermented stuff. During prohibition when the fermented cider was illegal, juice makers started referring to the fresh pressed, unfiltered stuff as cider and the filtered stuff as juice. After prohibition the names just stuck.

I know it is confusing but, it is terminology that has been around for nearly 100 years. It is not likely to change.

That sounds feasible! I'll go with that one!
 
Regardless of origins and history, we clearly find ourselves confused.
the use of the terms as defined in the first post make the most sense, so I fully support making a conscious decision to adopt that usage. If we all agree to use the terms that way and try to influence everyone we can, we may just have it in the common vernacular in 5-10 years.:D
 
Thank you all for your replies, some were funny, most were helpful, and some had some real insight. Of course none of this changes anything, juice will still be called cider & many won't know the difference. Though I have to admit that CBBaron had a very good point: The brown, cloudy stuff you only get in autumn IS significantly different (it's still juice) from regular juice, I'm not sure if this makes it deserving of it's own designation or not, considering what it is, but it IS something to consider (it's still juice). Germey pretty much summed it all up with his "in 5 or 10 years" comment. <LOL> Like billion dollar conglomerates are going to suddenly change their labels for 1 guy, or even a whole group of people. I guess it all boils down to I was slightly bent & this was my vent. Regards, GF.
 
Gratus, you are my hero for the day. Coming from the UK, I have always found it befuddling. "Hard cider"? What the heck!? If it's fermented apple juice, then it's bloody cider! If it is unfermented it is apple juice! How difficult is that to understand! If the marketers want to call it cider, then how about calling it non-alcoholic cider? or even simpler...Apple juice!

Thanks gf for clearing that up. We k1w1s follow the English terms, so I have to constantly read and re-read forum posts to savvy what is meant.

Like billion dollar conglomerates are going to suddenly change their labels for 1 guy, or even a whole group of people. I guess it all boils down to I was slightly bent & this was my vent. Regards, GF.

Include most of the Irish in your campaign...
So you went from a one man rant to the backing of 3 nations!!! Well 2 1/2 till Orfy or a non ex-pat chirps in... :D
 
In the local grocery stores it always confuses me because in the juice section, next to the tree-top, etc. There is the store brand apple juice labled "apple juice" and on the same shelf, mixed among them are the same store brand contaner, with a different color label reading "apple cider" The look totally identical, and the nutritional facts on the back, as well as ingrediants are all exactly the same, I always wondered if there was any difference at all, because they are listed at the same price and always stored together.
 
Well, on my second attempt at making something I took 5 gal of apple juice (Indian Summer) a packet of Red Star's Montrachet wine yeast and sugar. initial reading was 1.068. Made some serious rhino farts. But final reading was 1.000. Presently it is in week 2 of conditioning very appley carbonating the tongue - needs to age a week or 2 more. Should be perfect for Christmas and New Years. So for $20.00 I made 5 gallons of a 7.8% sparkling cider or hard apple juice as some of you may call it. A very fun and tasty experiment.
 
Germey said:
Regardless of origins and history, we clearly find ourselves confused.
the use of the terms as defined in the first post make the most sense, so I fully support making a conscious decision to adopt that usage. If we all agree to use the terms that way and try to influence everyone we can, we may just have it in the common vernacular in 5-10 years.:D

Just like Christianity from the beginning of time! Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
I make cider from the juice pressed from apples.

Making cider with cider sounds unnecessary ...

The French and British usage seems to be the most suitable, especially for a population of fermenters.

It seems that the temperance movement is responsible for the change in terms, and apple culture and utilization.
 
"I know what you are going to say... 'well common usage of a word dictates its meaning because a lot of people use the word to mean that thing'... well... a lot of people are really f'ing stupid, is that the level of your bar?"~ George Carlin

Now that I know the temperance twits changed the meaning of the word Im willing to get all grammar a'hole about it.
 
Perhaps the best things to debate are the things that hardly matter, the length and age of this thread a tribute to that possibility. 'Cider' would not be the only word that differs in meaning across different parts of the world, and it strikes me such differences add richness and interest to life if taken in moderation. Consider the word 'eraser' in the U.S. and a synonym 'rubber' in England. Or your daughter commenting after a hearty meal 'I'm stuffed' and how that might strike an English audience who assume that means 'impregnated'.

Massachusetts has a legal definition of 'cider' and 'apple juice' which (conveniently) jives with my own that the former is unfiltered and the latter is filtered - both unfermented. That this U.S. definition does not match that in England strikes me of little consequence, but nevertheless interesting.
 
what is apple juice called when it is served hot and spiced?
 
Apple Cider (also called sweet cider or soft cider) is the name used in the United States and parts of Canada for an unfiltered, unsweetened, non-alcoholic beverage made from apples. The term cider is used for the fermented alcoholic drink in most of the world, the term hard cider is used in the United States and much of Canada. In the United States, the distinction between plain apple juice and cider is not well established.
 
Well, let me totally screw up the idea that just the US is corrupting such a pure term as "cider."

In Korea, lemon-lime drinks such as 7-up or sprite are called "Cider" or at least that is the word it is taken from (there is no 'r' sound in the Korean language). The word that is used is a Koreanization of the English word "Cider."

An example of this is "Chilsung Cider" which is written in Korean as "&#52832;&#49457;&#49324;&#51060;&#45796;" which was something I often drank when I lived in Korea.

Chilsung Cider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The definition of the word "Cider," like many other definitions, is context and culture sensitive.

Okay, I feel better now :).
 
OK folks, let's try to reach an understanding here: Apple juice is just that, juice. Apple cider is what we as homebrewers/winemakers/meadmakers & CIDERmakers, etc... make from it. What is commonly labeled & sold as "apple cider" on grocery store shelves is NOT cider. It is apple JUICE. Even the wonderfully tasty, brown, cloudy stuff that is only available in the autumn & sold as "cider" is really only apple JUICE... "Cider" is what it becomes after we, or professionals, FERMENT it. Samuel Smith's Organic cider is cider. Farnum Hill Cider is cider. Ziegler's, Tree Top, Langer's, Albertson's, Safeway, White House, Western Family, etc, ad nauseum... are all just JUICE, regardlees of whether their labels say "cider" or not. If it contains no alcohol, it is NOT "cider." And some that DO contain alcohol are not worthy of the term "cider," but that's another post. Only in America do we make such things so damned complicated. FYI: I'm American, born & bred, so I'm exercising my 1st ammendment rights here. Anybody want to disagree, you have the right to do so. Since this little "rant" had everything to do with cider & juice, I posted here; if it should've been posted under "rants" I hope one of the moderators will move this to the "Rants" section & let me know so I don't make the same mistake (IF it is one) again. Thank you for allowing me to bend your ear(s). Regards, GF. "In vino, veritas." :drunk:

Thank you! Finally someone said it! Good info!
 
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