The Inevitable Newbie "Is my mead dead?" thread.

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GV00

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I was hoping to avoid this, as the question of "Is my mead broken?" seems to be a very common one with slow starts and new mead makers, but it looks like it wasn't meant to be.

Roughly 68 hours ago, I pitched my first batch of mead. It's been sitting in a cool area (currently about 64F) since then, and the original temp of the batch upon pitching was about 70F. It slowly cooled, and I expected to see a bit of life from it. 24 hours passed, and a haze of what I assume is yeast slowly built on the surface. It's about the right color, but there aren't really any bubbles. At the same time, it doesn't clump or seem to have formed any raft, as any agitation simply causes the layer to become a bit more dispersed as if individual cells were being shifted around. There looks to be some sediment at the bottom, though not as much as I would expect to see (granted, this is based primarily in comparison to the single batch of beer I've done, and the 4 batches of cider I've got going). I assume this is probably the start of a yeast cake.

My original pitch was at a SG of 1.100, roughly 5/6ths of a packet of Wyeast 4184 (sweet mead) for a 5 gallon batch. The remaining 6th was used on a 1g batch of cider (which seems to be doing fine) and then as an experiment I sloshed a bit of remaining apple juice in the honey bucket from the mead-making, and then dumped it into the packet to see if it'd pick up enough yeast to start fermenting, in hopes that perhaps I could later use that yeast to start another batch of cider. That experiment has been sealed in a washed & sanitized empty 2L soda bottle, and I've kept it warm -- those are some very happy yeast, judging by the way they've multiplied.

Today I noticed something rather disturbing that has finally prompted me to post, though. While I was looking a bit earlier, I noticed that not only has the mead not gotten any further (visibly) or evolved any gas, it's done the opposite -- water from the airlock was actually being drawn into the fermentation vessel! Hopefully nothing has contaminated it there.

Now the question I'm left with is what could cause this, and what should I do about it? I wiggled the airlock off in an attempt to keep it from pulling more water in, and took the chance to give it a sniff while I was there (smelled like honey, nothing strange about it, but no real yeast smell either). I did boil the water before using it, but I let it cool afterwards in a sealed vessel before adding the honey. I'm wondering if my yeast are unhappy because I didn't introduce enough O2 into the depleted water while stirring in the honey and transferring it to a carboy. Would this cause what I'm seeing? If so, should I just shake the heck out of the carboy and hope for the best?

I've also since read that the strain of yeast I'm using has a bit of a history of weak starts. The packet said it was enough to inoculate 6g of must, so I assumed it was probably safe to reallocate some of it. From what I've seen, that may have been a bad idea. Should I decant the liquid off of my experimental batch and try adding the remaining cake to my mead in hopes of giving it a boost?

Are there any other possibilities I've overlooked?
 
Are there any other possibilities I've overlooked?

Yes. Like the fact that you will need to wait several weeks or months for the ferment to finish normally. And you will need to burp it and degas it periodically during the process.

Repeat after me - "airlock activity is not a sign of fermentation". If your must started warm and then cooled, then you got some suck back due to the whole PV = nRT thing. Temperature in the headspace dropped, volume decreased, so pressure decreased.

Put the mead away someplace and check on it in a month.
 
My big concern is that it's sucking air -- that leads me to think that something is a bit off in there. If it simply weren't bubbling, I wouldn't be too worried, but with the temp being stable for 2 days, the sudden partial vacuum has me wondering what the heck would cause it, and I can't think of anything that would that would be beneficial.

Temp had been stable for a good day and a half before it started pulling vacuum, so I don't think it's cooling-related.
 
Leave it be. Hide it someplace and go do something else for a while. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to divine the ferment from airlock activity. If a high pressure weather front came through, that could cause your airlock to "suck in".

It might take several days for the yeast to get to work. Relax.
 
I'd completely forgotten about that possibility for a pressure differential. Sure enough, the clouds are breaking up and the sky is becoming visible after a few days of rain, so I'm betting that a high front probably is rolling through.

So I guess the question I'm left with is should I really just tuck it away and ignore that some airlock water is probably going to get pushed into the carboy, or should I keep an eye on it and try to vent it quickly of I think it's likely to do that? Which is the lesser evil? I know honey generally isn't the most hospitable medium for bugs, and the yeast I added is probably going to provide some competitive force, but the desire to minimize possible contamination as much as possible is still there.
 
I'd completely forgotten about that possibility for a pressure differential. Sure enough, the clouds are breaking up and the sky is becoming visible after a few days of rain, so I'm betting that a high front probably is rolling through.

So I guess the question I'm left with is should I really just tuck it away and ignore that some airlock water is probably going to get pushed into the carboy, or should I keep an eye on it and try to vent it quickly of I think it's likely to do that? Which is the lesser evil? I know honey generally isn't the most hospitable medium for bugs, and the yeast I added is probably going to provide some competitive force, but the desire to minimize possible contamination as much as possible is still there.

I'm more in the stir/degas camp. I'd stir it daily or twice aday, quite well, to provide an escape for co2 and allow some oxygen to come in if possible until the mead is at 1.030 or lower. I'd add nutrients on a staggered schedule (check out the mead making "sticky" threads on the FAQ). You have a high OG for such a low amount of yeast, so you really want to pamper it and encourage it along.
 
Concur with Yooper here........

Because the yeast is a PITA, it's likely to need pampering some.

Given the lower cell count of liquid packs when compared to dry packs, its likely still in lag phase so some O2 and even a bit of GoFerm wouldnt go amiss (on the presumption that you'd be best placed not adding anything that contains DAP until you've got signs of active fermentation)........
 
So, day 5 rolled around, with a whole lot of nothing. Went to the local brew store, picked up some nutrients and assorted odds and ends I needed. Came back, sanitized everything, popped the top...

...and the SG was 1.088, pH 3.6-ish. A whole .012 in 5 days. I'm thinking that might be a bit hung. Added around 3/4 tsp Fermaid-K and 1 tsp DAP, stirred the hell out of it to get everything in suspension and get some O2 back into the must. Going to give it 12-18 hours and see if there's signs of life. If not, I'll take my "experiment" batch of the same yeast and see if I can make a beefy starter to kick it off again.
 
Or the yeast was in the lag phase. 12 points in 5 days isn't the end of the world when fermenting meads. It could get faster with time. Still, no harm in what you did. But I'd leave it be other than to do an occaisional rousing to get CO2 gas out of suspension.
 
Well, 6 days later, and the SG is 1.086/87 with no action taken since the last post, save for covering the carboy with a couple old black T-shirts to keep light out. Since I was checking my cider, I figured I'd go ahead and take another reading on the mead. Took the T-shirts off, and found this stuff on top. It'd had a white haze on the surface for a while, but this looks like colonies to me. Infection city?

Taste test, it was about the same. Maybe a little zing at the end, but that could have been my imagination. Suggestions, anyone?

Oh, and sorry about the potato-phone quality photos. Options were limited, and though the haze on the carboy it's kinda a crapshoot anyway.

IMG_20131125_190821.jpg


IMG_20131125_190838.jpg
 
Yep -- pretty sure it's an infection now. The floating stuff has developed tendril-like masses that hang beneath the pellicle.

So the real question here is how to salvage it, if it doesn't taste horrible. Siphon out most of what I can, try to heat the entire batch to the lowest temp I can pasteurize at (there's a low & long duration temp, isn't there?), and then crush a few campden tabs & toss into the mix while I try to get a starter going?

Would the campden tabs be enough alone? Are there molds/bacteria that will survive just treating with tabs?
 
oh this is bad. I just made my first attempt at making mead and it is turning out to do this exact same thing. as far as the time line goes and the sucking the liquid from the airlock in. I made it 4 days ago and still nothing for any kind of fermentation. I used the same yeast too. let us know how this all turns out.
 
Well, if I were you I'd switch from water to vodka in the airlock -- I'm wishing I'd done it sooner, as I suspect that if this is an infection, that may've been the source of it (or something in the honey itself, which from what people have said seems like it'd be an unlucky break).

I think it was trying to ferment for a while, but just never really took off -- and now I'm betting the yeast are pretty much entirely out-competed by whatever is growing in it. This is my first batch too, so I'm largely in the dark about where to go from here, but if I don't get an answer soonish (probably tomorrow) I'm going to try the nuclear option: Pasteurize (with an eye toward doing it in excess), campden tablets for the rest, and try to re-pitch. I just hope it doesn't taste awful or be otherwise unusable before then.

Sadly, I'm not getting any real feedback. Not sure if it's because Thanksgiving is upon the US, or if it's just this thread failing to catch interest. Any sort of guidance would be appreciated.

Here's a few newer shots of what it looks like as of a couple hours ago. There's even murky tendrils of funk coming off of what I thought was the yeast cake on the bottom, so now I'm thinking maybe it wasn't yeast at all.

IMG_20131128_032903.jpg


IMG_20131128_032946.jpg


IMG_20131128_004719.jpg
 
well I'm pretty new to brewing all together and as I said this was my first shot at mead. So I've got no input for you. I always put star san in my air lock so even after it suck a little back into itself I wasn't too afraid of that. I was worried because I keep opening up the bucket to stir it and look at it. My batch finally started to bubble last night so I might end up being ok. Anyhow yeah I would say that stuff in your batch looks bad. All of the ideas you mentioned before would be my thoughts too. try to siphon around it as much as possible then try to kill it somehow. I would say give it another day or so and you should probably have a better answer than that though. like you said its thanksgiving and black Friday I bet you get a response by Saturday.
 
Well if it was mine, I'd have racked it from under the layer of muck, straining it through the finest cloth I could find and having soaked it in fresh sulphite solution first.

Then hit the batch with 100 ppm of sulphites (2 crushed campden tablets per gallon). Give it a week, then get it into a clean fermenter and aerate it daily for 3 or 4 days while making a starter from K1-V1116.

The innoculate with that...... then manage it in the usual way.....
 
I guess the real question here is will sulphite actually do the job. It stuns (but doesn't actually kill) yeast, right? So what about whatever bacteria/mold this might be? That's why I'm considering pastuerizing/boiling the lot, to make good and sure it's free of whatever already has a hold in it, so the yeast I introduce is not dealing with extra competition.

I think I'll put it through a couple coffee filters beforehand, since I've got no real cloth that'd be suitable for the job.
 
I guess the real question here is will sulphite actually do the job. It stuns (but doesn't actually kill) yeast, right? So what about whatever bacteria/mold this might be? That's why I'm considering pastuerizing/boiling the lot, to make good and sure it's free of whatever already has a hold in it, so the yeast I introduce is not dealing with extra competition.

I think I'll put it through a couple coffee filters beforehand, since I've got no real cloth that'd be suitable for the job.

The only time I had any infection was with a chenin blanc kit I bought to back sweeten. I opened it, used some and forgot about it for a fortnight. I just strained it through a couple of thicknesses of new cotton dish drying cloth soaked in sulphites, hit it with campden tablets and reserved 4 litres. The rest was made up as the dry white wine for topping off etc.

There's 2 litres still in the fridge which has been there for about 3 years. Tastes fine and I'm intending using it for partial back sweetening of some of the 20 or so gallons of traditional ageing under the stairs.

The only thing that I remember was that when I'd mixed up the balance ofthe sulphited juice to fermentation strength, I forgot itwas full of sulpjites and it took nearly a month to start fermenting.........

So it's entirely up to you. I can only tell you what I've done when I've had a similar issue and how I sorted it out.......
 
I'm a newbie to mead (only 2 batches in) but I've been doing beer and cider for quite a while. My first suggestion would be to use StarSan in your airlock. Water can get stale and turn into a petri dish and vodka attracts fruit flies and a few other non desirables. If you get negative pressure all of that crap goes PLOOP into your must/wort. If StarSan gets in there, you've just given your yeast a little more food. No harm, no foul, no potential off-flavors. My second suggestion would be to LEAVE IT ALONE. Put it in a cool dark place that you don't visit often and forget about it. This is a good time to start a batch or two of beer or cider to satisfy that incesent compulsion to brew. You can probably have 2-4 batches of beer (depending on the style) before your mead is ready. Maybe put a mark on your calendar for your degas/addition schedules, but you have to remind yourself to cap it and forget it. I don't even like to take a grav reading until I know it's getting closer to being done.
 
hello
dont use a petri dish with vodka.You only get more fruitflys.(the petry has more space then the small Airlock)Put a small teabag over the Airlock and change the water regular.Shake the batch too.Work very very clean.
 

Not sure about mead or wine, but in beer, a little StarSan can actually provide a little boost for your yeasties. Hard to explain, but it essentially sanitizes some of the beer or krausen which the yeast have been working hard on trying to eat. This gives the yeast a little hint to move onto something worthwhile (i.e. the wort).
 
Not sure about mead or wine, but in beer, a little StarSan can actually provide a little boost for your yeasties. Hard to explain, but it essentially sanitizes some of the beer or krausen which the yeast have been working hard on trying to eat. This gives the yeast a little hint to move onto something worthwhile (i.e. the wort).
Interesting, had never heard that....but then again, have never used StarSan.....just getting back to homebrewing/mazing after a bunch of years, so , there's always something to learn ;)
 
Just an update to this. What I'd originally assumed to be an infection was just the yeast very, very slowly ramping up. I don't know exactly why it found the must somewhat inhospitable, but it took about 2 weeks to show real signs of life. The white spots that I assumed were colonies of something else were just air bubbles trapped in the proto-krausen & honey scum. The day I was going to filter and try to pasteurize, I found the airlock bubbling away quite merrily, and the scum had turned into the beige-brown bubbly funk we all know and love from yeast. So I gave it a taste, checked the SG, and decided to give the carboy a swirl after to degas.

It tasted as expected, SG had dropped some, and the swirl did release a bit of gas...but it also moved the yeast raft around so I spotted something I'd missed. A blue-green colony of mold had in fact started up on one of the yeast rafts, probably due to the lack of a CO2 buffer due to the slow fermentation start coupled with the airlock spillage into the must.

I went ahead and racked the entire batch into a 5 gallon carboy to reduce headspace. After losses, the must filled it up to the base of the neck. The mold colony ended up stuck to the inside of the original carboy maybe half a gallon after I started siphoning and did not appear to break up at all. It's been over a week (I believe) since I did that procedure, and the must has been fermenting slowly ever since with no signs of further infection.

I think this batch is probably going to turn out okay at this point, and my early concerns were reasonable but to some degree unfounded. It's probably a good thing I kept as close an eye on it as I did since it allowed me to address the mold before it really got started (the colony never got any bigger than the size of my pinky fingernail, and hopefully didn't release enough spores to cause a reinfection once the yeast is done), but I was overly worried with what turned out to be yeast after all.

Lesson learned: Yeastie beasties can be moody little buggers and will do their own thing according to their own schedule, and they can give you a strange show while they do so. When in doubt, test, wait, test, wait, and hold off action until you're 100% sure it's something else, one way or another.
 
This thread was actually quite helpful as I start my own journey into mead.

Yeast takes a while (weeks perhaps) to get chowin down on honey must.

White foam is likely micro bubbles of air.

Pressure variances can cause unexpected behavior in the carboy airlock. To me then, I will stop cap the carboy until must temperature equals room temp, then replace the stop cap with an airlock.

Airlock can be filled with water, vodka or StarSan *BUT* as alcohol evaporates from the vodka it will attract bugs. StarSan is not harmful to the yeast must mixture and appears the superior choice as a sanitized medium.

CO2 gets trapped in the yeast/must mixture and yeast need O2 to survive so there may be times it is important to let the must breathe and help CO2 escape.

All in all, excellent noob thread. Now, off to learn more. :)
 
Pressure variances can cause unexpected behavior in the carboy airlock. To me then, I will stop cap the carboy until must temperature equals room temp, then replace the stop cap with an airlock.

Airlock can be filled with water, vodka or StarSan *BUT* as alcohol evaporates from the vodka it will attract bugs. StarSan is not harmful to the yeast must mixture and appears the superior choice as a sanitized medium.

Just wanna throw a few cents into the jar on these two bullets.

1. Do you mean a solid stopper when you say "stop cap"? If so, I wouldn't seal anything with active yeast in it. Just use one with the airlock. As long as you fill your airlocks below the max line, you won't get anything sucked in anyways.

But having a solid stopper on when yeast decides to eat some more, could crack your carboy or bust it all the way. They aren't made they way they used to be.

2. Star-san is good for airlocks, but there is a downside. During primary ferment, it bubbles a lot. In fact it bubbles out the airlock because the bubbles sustain unlike water.
 
Just wanna throw a few cents into the jar on these two bullets.

1. Do you mean a solid stopper when you say "stop cap"? If so, I wouldn't seal anything with active yeast in it. Just use one with the airlock. As long as you fill your airlocks below the max line, you won't get anything sucked in anyways.

But having a solid stopper on when yeast decides to eat some more, could crack your carboy or bust it all the way. They aren't made they way they used to be.

2. Star-san is good for airlocks, but there is a downside. During primary ferment, it bubbles a lot. In fact it bubbles out the airlock because the bubbles sustain unlike water.

1. Yes, I did mean a solid stopper. This would only be for a few hours until temperatures normalize. Just something to prevent any contamination. Really, this only matters if you have heated the must which I don't really want to do at all :) Immediately after temps are normalized, the airlock goes on.

2. Did not realize this... I will keep an eye on that!

The biggest issue now is finding a local source of raw honey that doesn't cost a fortune.
 
Where you at? Im sure someone in that area would chime in and tell you about their secret spot.

You can also just google (your state) apiaries. Lots of them are older websites but those are the best because its usually a local raw operation.
 
Just a few things to note. The small bubbles I originally saw didn't actually look like bubbles, aside from their round shape. They were small enough that the surface funk was completely opaque, making them look like little white colonies of something. It was very, very easy to mistake them as such. If you google "flowers of wine", you'll see some images that look a lot like what I saw. I'm guessing it's only a real problem on slow starting ferments, because otherwise enough gas will come out of solution that you'll end up with the brown/beige foam full of larger bubbles that we're all familiar with. I guess if you looked at just the right time you might see them, but if so I'd wait several hours (with a ferment showing real signs of life), or a couple days (in one where it appeared flatlined, like mine) before acting on it. I would have sworn they weren't bubbles right up until the end.

If it's a real slow ferment, I'd also suggest going with a blowoff tube in a small bucket/cup of sanitizing liquid. The extra space and long drop down the side of the carboy ought to provide more than enough expansion/contraction space for atmospheric pressure variations, which is what caused my airlock to "suck in" the buffer media at least once. Temperature can do the same, but I'm pretty sure the temp was near enough to ambient after the first week that it wasn't to blame. Either way, it seems like an easy solution to the issue, and even if you use a sanitizer with a tendency to foam and the fermentation gets really aggressive, at least your cup/bucket won't be foaming over onto the carboy, so I imagine it'd make mess management a bit easier. The only real downside would be having to sanitize an extra length of tubing, so it might add a very tiny additional risk of infection if you don't do it right. I wouldn't go with a solid stopper, since there's going to need to be some minor pressure fluctuations no matter what, and if fermentation catches while you're at work/asleep, it's probably going to blow the stopper out and expose your must to anything that falls/flies/drifts in, unless you really wedge the stopper in. If you really, really wedge it in...well, that could be even worse. Something is going to fail under pressure eventually, you know?

Regarding alcohol in airlocks, there've been a few fruit flies around mine, but honestly I'm pretty sure that's due to the farts coming off of the vessels in primary fermentation. I've got 4 1-gallon jugs with alcohol-filled airlocks sitting a few feet away from my primary fermentation vessels, and have yet to see a fruit fly near any of them. I use a square of tissue paper and a rubber band to make a dust/fly filter over the top of my airlocks now. It's porous enough that the gas gets through easily, but doesn't have holes large enough to admit anything else. I figure the vodka is enough to handle anything small enough to get through the pores of the TP, since it's pretty close to the realm of microorganisms at that point.
 
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